RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

craigybagel · 1 Nov 2019

Undiscovered said:
As most guards know, a Saturday night, last train back, full and standing with football supporters, Christmas parties, and all the others is a very different kettle of fish to a nice, quiet Wednesday lunchtime pootle up the line.

Whatever happens, and whoever works the trains, I Hope everyone gets home safely.

This too, and I feel foolish for forgetting that other reason why it might be hard to find people to work on those nights. Having worked for another TOC as a guard in amongst other areas the West Midlands until recently, it's definitely not an experience for the faint hearted.

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Starmill · 1 Nov 2019

Even when the full timetable operates, trains from Birmingham and Manchester on Christmas Shopping Saturday afternoons were so busy that people were being left behind. In many cases, trains were more overcrowded on Saturday evenings than weekday peaks. That alone is a good enough reason to strike on these days - although presumably the final trains will run early on all of the dates anyway. On Northern it was generally 1600ish for the last service.

Starmill · 1 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Won't happen. Last time VT coped fine albeit with some standees.

Given that several Saturday trains are already full and standing (and that some are 5 car), it will be interesting to see who is right.

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2019

Starmill said:
Given that several Saturday trains are already full and standing (and that some are 5 car), it will be interesting to see who is right.

There are also 11-car services and room to rejig to put those on services calling at MKC.

Carlisle · 1 Nov 2019

HLE said:
Not quite, there's some logic. .

Not really, senior figures within the industry & DFT must’ve know the RMT were always experts at playing TOCs against one another, & if northern, Merseyrail & SWR all spent 3 years planning & promoting DCO & all then dropped it, significantly escalated strike action at any further TOC with similar ideas was inevitable.

Silverlinky · 1 Nov 2019

All those companies promoted and proposed DOO.....Driver Only......one person on the train.
As far as i'm aware only Merseyrail have settled their dispute, but the guard still lost some of the dispatch procedure.....ie the Driver now opens the doors.

WMT were never promoting DOO.......to my knowledge at least. It was always going to be DCO, second person on the train but the driver having full control of the doors. Now the RMT are fighting to keep the guards involved in some part of the dispatch procedure....as they managed to do at Merseyrail.
They see the guard losing their dispatch duties as the first step to the disappearance of the role full stop. DCO now and DOO soon......can see their argument.

As far is im aware though WMT has never said there won't be a second PTS trained member of staff on the train to assist should anything major go wrong. Thats how they try and cover themselves when it comes to the "safety" argument.

gazzaa2 · 1 Nov 2019

8J said:
Absolute nonsense! I suspect the reason they've chosen Saturday to walk out is for a number of reasons. Firstly, the antisocial behaviour onboard late Saturday services across the network in the run up to Christmas may make management wake up and realise the worth of the conductors onboard.

Secondly as has been mentioned, upsetting season ticket holders is not what the RMT wish to achieve. The leisure market is where the TOC make a significant revenue loss from strikes.

Another reason to avoid working them then.

Hardly a shock that getting to sit out Saturdays in the Christmas season is a vote winner (especially if they can make the hours up on overtime).

Carlisle · 1 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
All those companies promoted and proposed DOO.....Driver Only......one person on the train .

They all did initially, but all eventually backed down & offered the RMT a guaranteed second safety trained or safety critical onboard staff member, which ultimately was accepted on G A but couldn’t be adapted to end the disputes elsewhere as the union then moved the goalposts

Kite159 · 2 Nov 2019

Am I correct in thinking the RMT decided to raise an issue a few years ago when it was Govia running the franchise as they wanted to introduce security staff on late night services to assist the guard in keeping order? (Rather than the guard simply hiding away in the back cab unwilling to do or say anything to any antisocial behaviour onboard).

The strikes will simply move leisure travel away from the railways to cars or buses (or in the case of Birmingham, to the tram).

Silverlinky · 2 Nov 2019

Carlisle said:
Not really, senior figures within the industry & DFT must’ve know the RMT were always experts at playing TOCs against one another, & if northern, Merseyrail & SWR all spent 3 years planning & promoting DCO & all then dropped it, significantly escalated strike action at any further TOC with similar ideas was inevitable.

Kite159 said:
Am I correct in thinking the RMT decided to raise an issue a few years ago when it was Govia running the franchise as they wanted to introduce security staff on late night services to assist the guard in keeping order? (Rather than the guard simply hiding away in the back cab unwilling to do or say anything to any antisocial behaviour onboard).

The strikes will simply move leisure travel away from the railways to cars or buses (or in the case of Birmingham, to the tram).

Yeah, I think I remember that.......the staff wanted the extra security on the late trains and the RMT saw it as a threat as the security guards were asking for tickets.....

Goldfish62 · 2 Nov 2019

Carlisle said:
Not really, senior figures within the industry & DFT must’ve know the RMT were always experts at playing TOCs against one another, & if northern, Merseyrail & SWR all spent 3 years planning & promoting DCO & all then dropped it, significantly escalated strike action at any further TOC with similar ideas was inevitable.

SWR haven't dropped DCO. Yet.

Undiscovered · 2 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
Yeah, I think I remember that.......the staff wanted the extra security on the late trains and the RMT saw it as a threat as the security guards were asking for tickets.....

If I recall it's because the security were a private company, not actual railway staff and were employed to provide security for the guard, while he checks tickets.
If there was another member of railway staff on board, like an RPI/RPO,that would have been preferable, but then you get into allsorts over sick pay, corporate responsibility etc.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

Undiscovered said:
If I recall it's because the security were a private company, not actual railway staff and were employed to provide security for the guard, while he checks tickets.
If there was another member of railway staff on board, like an RPI/RPO,that would have been preferable, but then you get into allsorts over sick pay, corporate responsibility etc.

Yet this is exactly what private security are for - they are for protection of things and people, not for doing the main job. That is, to ensure the guard would be safe to ensure that drunks had tickets on the "p***head expresses" off Euston on a Saturday evening, and so if said drunks did things like operate passcoms they could, old style, be thrown off at Cheddington for a long walk.

At least unlike Northern I'm not aware of them proposing to have agency ticket inspectors.

BucksBones · 2 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yet this is exactly what private security are for - they are for protection of things and people, not for doing the main job. That is, to ensure the guard would be safe to ensure that drunks had tickets on the "p***head expresses" off Euston on a Saturday evening, and so if said drunks did things like operate passcoms they could, old style, be thrown off at Cheddington for a long walk.

At least unlike Northern I'm not aware of them proposing to have agency ticket inspectors.

That would be good thing if it wasn't for the fact that it's physically impossible to get through the train on a Saturday evening now they're all 8-car instead of 12 and crammed to the rafters even with no cancellations.

VT 390 · 2 Nov 2019

Could West Midlands Trains offer the same solution Mersyrail has done or is it not possible with the new trains WMT has ordered?

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

VT 390 said:
Could West Midlands Trains offer the same solution Mersyrail has done or is it not possible with the new trains WMT has ordered?

Driver open guard close? I'm sure they could. The trains haven't been ordered to be worked in that way (which is odd, as I thought the DaFT had required all new trains to allow all three of DOO, driver release and full guard operation for maximum flexibility of redeployment, and over in East Anglia this has come in useful because of DOO camera faults anyway!) - however I'm sure at this stage a variation could be ordered, albeit at a price - after all there have been all sorts of DOO <-> non DOO conversions over the years.

Silverlinky · 2 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Driver open guard close? I'm sure they could. The trains haven't been ordered to be worked in that way (which is odd, as I thought the DaFT had required all new trains to allow all three of DOO, driver release and full guard operation for maximum flexibility of redeployment, and over in East Anglia this has come in useful because of DOO camera faults anyway!) - however I'm sure at this stage a variation could be ordered, albeit at a price - after all there have been all sorts of DOO <-> non DOO conversions over the years.

I'm sure they can be rewired or converted back and forth.

Another cheaper (?) solution could be for the train to stop, the driver to release the doors, the guard to leave the cab and step out onto the platform, guard checks for safe dispatch and signals to the driver via the nearest bodyside camera to close the doors, driver closes doors, guard sees all doors close, checks platform clear, gets back into cab, closes door, driver gets interlock and away they go.

Driver controls opening and closing of doors, guard still remains on the train and is still in charge of safe dispatch procedure. Job done?

Carlisle · 2 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
I'm sure they can be rewired or converted back and forth.

Why spend money doing that?
In the case of Merseyrail which has been mentioned previously, the professionals running Merseytravel & the TOC had done their homework over several years & as far as I understand had pretty decisively concluded driver door control was the best option all round going forward, & have only been told to back down due to intervention by the mayor, unless anyone knows differently

Class 170101 · 2 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
I'm sure they can be rewired or converted back and forth.

Another cheaper (?) solution could be for the train to stop, the driver to release the doors, the guard to leave the cab and step out onto the platform, guard checks for safe dispatch and signals to the driver via the nearest bodyside camera to close the doors, driver closes doors, guard sees all doors close, checks platform clear, gets back into cab, closes door, driver gets interlock and away they go.

Driver controls opening and closing of doors, guard still remains on the train and is still in charge of safe dispatch procedure. Job done?

But how easy is it for a guard to enter the drivers cab via the driver's side entrance whilst the driver is sitting there?

Silverlinky · 2 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
But how easy is it for a guard to enter the drivers cab via the driver's side entrance whilst the driver is sitting there?

????

I meant intermediate cabs.....5 or 10 car 730 operation, 1 or 3 other cabs to use, 4/8/12 car 350 operation, 1,3 or 5 other cabs to use dependant on platform curvature etc.
Platform risk assessments would have to be carried out at each location.

Class 170101 · 2 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
????

I meant intermediate cabs.....5 or 10 car 730 operation, 1 or 3 other cabs to use, 4/8/12 car 350 operation, 1,3 or 5 other cabs to use dependant on platform curvature etc.
Platform risk assessments would have to be carried out at each location.

Ah yes indeed intermediate cabs could be used, I took it to mean place the guard in the leading drivers cab. Class 321s and Class 360s are cab based operation in my experience.

RealTrains07 · 3 Nov 2019

The strikes could be alot worse

at least its only 1 day a week instead of 2, 3 or 4 consecutive days in a row

Carlisle · 3 Nov 2019

RealTrains07 said:
The strikes could be alot worse

at least its only 1 day a week instead of 2, 3 or 4 consecutive days in a row

The reasoning behind the RMT continually choosing Saturdays has been well explained & debated many times over on this forum regardless of which side anyone happens to be on .

CHAPS2034 · 3 Nov 2019

RealTrains07 said:
The strikes could be alot worse

at least its only 1 day a week instead of 2, 3 or 4 consecutive days in a row

Tell that to all the people in Northern-land who had their weekends disrupted by this very type of action late last year / earlier this year. If your only leisure time is at the weekend, it puts the mockers on all sorts of trips.

pt_mad · 3 Nov 2019

Silverlinky said:
The TOC does not want DOO.....the TOC wants DCO. The TOC is committed to having DCO as per the original franchise bid and spec.

There was an explicit guarantee given that nobody would lose their jobs over this. That was given for the length of the current franchise and the next one should Abellio keep it/win it again.

New rolling stock has been ordered, DCO ready, plans were put in place to convert existing stock to DCO operation.

There will always be a second person on the train.

All this was known two years ago!

The issue is about what that second person does, what role they carry out and whether they are safety critical.

DOO is Driver Only Operation, DCO is Driver Controlled Operation.

DOO = 1 person on the train, DCO = 2 persons on the train.

The RMT have had recent success in keeping the guard involved in some of the process of door operation (even if its Driver opens, guard closes) on other TOCS recently.......and now they want the same at WMT.

It may be worth noting that the rulebook refers only to 'DO' in the train dispatch section. DO being driver operation of the train, where the driver performs the dispatch process alone. There is no DCO in the train dispatch section of the rulebook, only DO and it refers to where the driver dispatches the train by themselves.

Carlisle · 3 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
It may be worth noting that the rulebook refers only to 'DO' in the train dispatch section. DO being driver operation of the train, where the driver performs the dispatch process alone. There is no DCO in the train dispatch section of the rulebook, only DO and it refers to where the driver dispatches the train by themselves.

If the RMT genuinely wanted to end all these disputes tomorrow in the interests of rail users they’ could always offer all TOCs concerned the Greater Anglia deal and I’m pretty certain everything could be settled.

Class 170101 · 3 Nov 2019

Carlisle said:
If the RMT genuinely wanted to end all these disputes tomorrow in the interests of rail users they’ could always offer all TOCs concerned the Greater Anglia deal and I’m pretty certain everything could be settled.

Certain aspects of the GA aren't actually operating in practise yet anyway as highlighted elsewhere on this board. For example Guards are still dispatching Class 755s due to camera issues.

Carlisle · 3 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
Certain aspects of the GA aren't actually operating in practise yet anyway as highlighted elsewhere on this board. For example Guards are still dispatching Class 755s due to camera issues.

Ok thanks for the update

craigybagel · 3 Nov 2019

Carlisle said:
If the RMT genuinely wanted to end all these disputes tomorrow in the interests of rail users they’ could always offer all TOCs concerned the Greater Anglia deal and I’m pretty certain everything could be settled.

But the RMT don't exist to look after the interests of rail users. This isn't a criticism, I'm a member myself. It's just a fact - they exist to represent the best interests of the transport workers who make up their membership. I'm not sure why people keep forgetting this fact or acting surprised when they do things like call strikes which obviously have a negative impact on the rail users. I'm sure they'd rather not do it, but sadly we don't live in a perfect world.

Carlisle · 3 Nov 2019

craigybagel said:
I'm not sure why people keep forgetting this fact or acting surprised when they do things like call strikes

I think post#54 sums up the realities of the present situation

RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

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