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HS2 Review ongoing

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DynamicSpirit

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Realistically, on a two-track railway that is supposed to take 18 trains per hour, every single signal is going to be a single point of failure... one train that can't move and the entire line seizes up - as is of course the case on much of the current network.

Having said that, even without the hypothetical addition of Bristol services, that track diagram looks intuitively to me like a nightmare for conflicting moves heading into and out of Curzon Street. But I'm not a railway expert - I guess this is the kind of thing where you trust that the designers have done lots of computer modelling to verify that the design is adequate?
 
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keithboddey

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Can someone clear this up for me.
The year is 2027 and I want to travel from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
The old direct Pendolino service is now slightly slower with more stops.
What will my journey via the newly built HS2 involve ?
 

Robertj21a

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Can someone clear this up for me.
The year is 2027 and I want to travel from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
The old direct Pendolino service is now slightly slower with more stops.
What will my journey via the newly built HS2 involve ?


More cost ?
 

Metrailway

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Can someone clear this up for me.
The year is 2027 and I want to travel from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
The old direct Pendolino service is now slightly slower with more stops.
What will my journey via the newly built HS2 involve ?

Birmingham Curzon Street to Euston is 49 minutes according to HS2 Ltd
You will need to add in at least a 15 minute interchange from New Street which adds to 64 minutes.
On the asumption that your connection is not perfectly timed, you will also need to add an average 10 minutes waiting time (as there is 3tph to London) --> 74 minutes
Fastest New Street - Wolverhampton is 16 minutes which takes the total journey time to 90 minutes via HS2.

The current Wolverhampton - Euston via WCML journey time is 108 minutes.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Can someone clear this up for me.
The year is 2027 and I want to travel from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
The old direct Pendolino service is now slightly slower with more stops.
What will my journey via the newly built HS2 involve ?

You'll have lots of choices, although the direct route is likely to be slightly slower.
  • If you want to go directly, it's likely (depending on what happens to the WCML timetable) that your train will stop additionally at Rugby and Watford Junction (which it currently doesn't stop at). Maybe 10 mins longer to Euston, but obviously more convenient if you actually want to go to Rugby or Watford.
  • If you are willing to change, then you'll EITHER got to New Street, then walk or get the tram to Curzon Street, and an HS2 to London, OR go to Birmingham International, and use the dedicated people mover to get to Birmingham Interchange, from which HS2 trains will depart for Euston roughly every 5 minutes. Either of these should give you a slightly faster journey than you presently have, although less pleasant if you don't like changing.
One other thing... Depending where you actually want to get to in London, you may find it more convenient to go to Old Oak Common (connections to Heathrow, Paddington, the City, Stratford) or Watford than Euston - neither option is available without HS2.
 
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AM9

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Equally, with 400m trains to fill, might cost less.
... and of course the direct fare will probably rise as well. In addition, most people's income will also rise in line with general inflation, so the net increase could well be below inflation. If on the other hand, the 'do nothing'* argument wins, the existing classic fares could have considerable rises owing to increasing demand management.
* £12BN was spent 'improving' the WCML in the noughties, yet fares still rose ahead of inflation. There is no reason to suggest that token upgrades being promoted will be any less ineffective than the last lot.
 

class26

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... and of course the direct fare will probably rise as well. In addition, most people's income will also rise in line with general inflation, so the net increase could well be below inflation. If on the other hand, the 'do nothing'* argument wins, the existing classic fares could have considerable rises owing to increasing demand management.
* £12BN was spent 'improving' the WCML in the noughties, yet fares still rose ahead of inflation. There is no reason to suggest that token upgrades being promoted will be any less ineffective than the last lot.

I`m not sure we can use a direct link to improvements and fare increases. i suspect any "improvement" is just an excuse to raise fares as much as possible as it has been the expressed aim of governments recently to increase fare contribution to overall rail costs from 50% to 75 %. What I mean is fares would go up whatever.
 

Ianno87

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I`m not sure we can use a direct link to improvements and fare increases. i suspect any "improvement" is just an excuse to raise fares as much as possible as it has been the expressed aim of governments recently to increase fare contribution to overall rail costs from 50% to 75 %. What I mean is fares would go up whatever.

For the West Coast Route Modernisation, there was no such hike in fares following improvements and introduction of the Dec 2008 timetable - they continued to be linked to inflation.

In fact, the low level of inflation meant that some fares actually reduced in absolute terms in the couple of years following. And the newly created capacity created more of an abundance of Advance fares.
 

Tobbes

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The single point of failure would be my major concern too, but is a common concern for many places on the network. I think they'd need the very best most reliable Japanese style equipment reliability specified, and a very well equipped dedicated maintenance team stationed ready to go in a hut right next to the junction (not a bad idea in itself, whether or not the additional conventional network connections existed).
Fair enough, but I'd still make it a double junction - I'd hate to be the Private Secretary who had to tell the Minister that chaos in our new shiney HS2 was simply because we'd specified one point and not two to save peanuts...
 
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Manchester's approaches are almost entirely tunnelled from Manchester Airport too, because there's no other alternstive

Years ago, I enquired why Manchester did not have an underground or even at that time a link between Piccadilly and Victoria, I was told that the sub-soil ground structure in Manchester made tunnelling very difficult and costly. Technology may have moved on since then, but I still wondered if a 6+ mile tunnel from the Airport to Piccadilly was justified.

I wondered if extending the Crewe line North to a point where it could join up with a NPR HS3 line from Liverpool to Manchester would not be a preferable alternative and also allow HS2 trains to go forward to Leeds, without a noticeable extension to the London Manchester journey times. Only a much shorter city centre tunnel would be required as there are more surface routings possible west of the City Centre. It also routes through less "expensive" Cheshire areas..

Politically that would then provide a link between HS2 and NPR rail and also be seen to be providing an HS2 service to Liverpool.

The only problem would be the loss of the Manchester Airport station - but that does not provide good connections to any local destination and even the proposed tram journey time to the Airport terminals will be not much less than the present non-stop journey time from Piccadilly to the current in-terminal rail station. It does however go against the promises made by Cameron/Osbourne to the Chinese who are funding the development of the Airport City development - but they are already cheesed off by Brexit!
 
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MarkyT

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Years ago, I enquired why Manchester did not have an underground or even at that time a link between Piccadilly and Victoria, I was told that the sub-soil ground structure in Manchester made tunnelling very difficult and costly. Technology may have moved on since then, but I still wondered if a 6+ mile tunnel from the Airport to Piccadilly was justified.

It would appear to me that extending the Crewe line North to a point where it could join up with a NPR HS3 line from Liverpool to Manchester would not be a preferable alternative and also allow HS2 trains to go forward to Leeds, without a noticeable extension to the London Manchester journey times. Only a much shorter city centre tunnel would be required as there are more available surface routings possible west of the City Centre. It also routes through less "expensive" Cheshire areas..

Politically that would then provide a link between HS2 and NPR rail and also be seen to be providing an HS2 service to Liverpool.

The only problem would be the loss of the Manchester Airport station - but that does not provide good connections to any local destination and even the proposed tram journey time to the Airport terminals will be not much less than the present non-stop journey time from Piccadilly to the current in-terminal rail station. It does however go against the promises made by Cameron/Osbourne to the Chinese who are funding the development of the Airport City development - but they are already cheesed off by Brexit!

I think you're right that tunneling technology has improved markedly, and there's the possibility that the approach from the south may be through different material than the 'difficult' city centre. The HS2 Manchester approach through their proposed tunnel provides very effective relief for the Stockport corridor, which is completely full and difficult to solve by targetted surface interventions. All other existing approach routes into Manchester from the south and west suffer similar problems mainly due to the preponderance of double track with intermediate stations and a mix of stopping patterns. I have always understood that a key NPR assumption was use of HS2s Manchester tunnel to route their North East - Liverpool trains via Manchester Airport, which makes a lot of sense to get longer distance Transpennines (current and future ones that actually cross the Pennines rather than the Manchester - Scotland route) out of the Castlefield corridor and out of the existing airport station, releasing capacity that could be taken up by improved local services. The new corridor would have no intermediate stations clearly, and would be a fast 'conveyor belt' for high density services all of similar stopping pattern and performance, so maximising capacity. By removing fasts from a number of other routes, this would also create capacity for more local services on those routes. A NPR cross-Manchester tunnel between Piccadilly and the Miles Platting area would also have no difficult and expensive intermediate stations, but clearly a major project to build the basement platforms at Piccadilly would still be required, although at least that can be in a construction friendly trench beneath the HS2 platfroms rather than being mined around a bored tunnel.
 

Eddd

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I think the seven additional 400m terminal platforms that Curzon St will provide in central Birmingham could prove very useful for notional future Cross country routings, allowing trains using the northern phase 2 arms to join and divide as they reverse for destinations in the south. So with suitable additional connections, a full length train arriving from Leeds could have portions for the west country via Bristol and the south coast via Reading for example.

This plus the proposed junction facing towards Leicester could be great PR for the project if the £1bn (complete guess) cost could be found. "10 new cities to be served by HS2 (trains) under plans to refocus the project to serve the whole country, not just London"
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I wondered if extending the Crewe line North to a point where it could join up with a NPR HS3 line from Liverpool to Manchester would not be a preferable alternative and also allow HS2 trains to go forward to Leeds, without a noticeable extension to the London Manchester journey times. Only a much shorter city centre tunnel would be required as there are more surface routings possible west of the City Centre. It also routes through less "expensive" Cheshire areas..

The NPR design seems to be heading for the reverse of what you suggest, with the NPR route joining the HS2 route around Millington for a run into Manchester via the Airport, also linking to Liverpool in the other direction.
HS2 runs as far north as Middlewich/Millington/Culcheth before rejoining the WCML at Golborne, but there are no easy access routes to Manchester from the west.
 

w35

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Birmingham Curzon Street to Euston is 49 minutes according to HS2 Ltd
You will need to add in at least a 15 minute interchange from New Street which adds to 64 minutes.
On the asumption that your connection is not perfectly timed, you will also need to add an average 10 minutes waiting time (as there is 3tph to London) --> 74 minutes
Fastest New Street - Wolverhampton is 16 minutes which takes the total journey time to 90 minutes via HS2.

The current Wolverhampton - Euston via WCML journey time is 108 minutes.

Today:
  • There are many scheduled for 1h45 (105 mins) and fastest journey is 1h38 (98 mins) - the 0705 departure.
  • Of that ~100 minutes, 100% is usable time. From WVH, you probably have a seat, laptop or book out. At least in the up direction if you didn't reserve.
Future:
  • Whilst the fastest current WVH to BHM is 16 mins, recall that you would be "connecting" on whatever the service that fits the time for your Curzon St departure, meaning between 16 and 25 minutes. Let's say you pick the fastest ones (mostly 18 mins).
  • Walking between stations - 13 minutes station door to station door (Google maps) plus two barriers to pass through and time for platform to/from barrier. Total 18 minutes for the athletically able.
  • Agreed, you now have average of 10 minutes to wait for your HS2
  • Does this not sound Like 49 mins, plus 10, plus 18, plus 18. That's 1h35 or 95 minutes.
    • Of this, 18 minutes exercise (for no extra charge). If you have bags, you can have a great workout, or bowl people over with a trolley case for extra points.
    • Two usable stints of time (49 plus 18) so 2/3 of your journey, although you may be standing on the local service. Your reservation won't count on a local..
However you look at it, this is a harder journey. People value through trains and not disruption.

The maths for Coventry passengers would be worse.

The only way to improve it for Birmingham connections would be for Curzon Street to replace New Street entirely, or all New Street services to call there. It's insane how close it is to the existing running lines, but I have never seen this proposed.
 

WatcherZero

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Been trailed quite heavily in papers over the weekend that of the 13 options examined the Review has settled on jettisoning the eastern leg and saving £10bn in favour of routing all Leeds trains through Manchester.

If they do that then it becomes essential they build the underground through station that can also be used for NPR and not the surface station reversing option.
 

HSTEd

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Been trailed quite heavily in papers over the weekend that of the 13 options examined the Review has settled on jettisoning the eastern leg and saving £10bn in favour of routing all Leeds trains through Manchester.

If they do that then it becomes essential they build the underground through station that can also be used for NPR and not the surface station reversing option.

The underground through station will cost a substantial fraction of the £10bn.

More likely they will build a spur from the Airport to vicinity of Guide Bridge and be done with it.
 

Bletchleyite

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The underground through station will cost a substantial fraction of the £10bn.

More likely they will build a spur from the Airport to vicinity of Guide Bridge and be done with it.

I hope in that case TPE haven't got used to their high frequency services as they'll lose them again...
 

HSTEd

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I hope in that case TPE haven't got used to their high frequency services as they'll lose them again...
Well I could come up with a scheme where HS2 trains to Leeds join the Styal line at the Airport, and the reconstruction of Oxford Road nad the Picadilly through platforms allows the TPE Airport-North East services to become London-North East services via the Airport.....
 

Bletchleyite

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Well I could come up with a scheme where HS2 trains to Leeds join the Styal line at the Airport, and the reconstruction of Oxford Road nad the Picadilly through platforms allows the TPE Airport-North East services to become London-North East services via the Airport.....

If you're going to do that you might as well bin off the eastern services altogether and stick with the MML and ECML (other than possibly running more Edinburgh trains via the WCML than at present). The time you'll lose by bimbling through the suburbs at 75mph for half an hour will offset any gains. It only makes sense if you actually build NPR.
 

The Ham

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Been trailed quite heavily in papers over the weekend that of the 13 options examined the Review has settled on jettisoning the eastern leg and saving £10bn in favour of routing all Leeds trains through Manchester.

If they do that then it becomes essential they build the underground through station that can also be used for NPR and not the surface station reversing option.

It sounds a bit like that opposed to HS2 (one of the papers highlighting it is the Times) have added two and two and are implying 5, from here:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-times-nearly-one-hour-sources-say-812470?amp

One of the 13 options being considered....
 

JonathanH

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It sounds a bit like that opposed to HS2 (one of the papers highlighting it is the Times) have added two and two and are implying 5, from here:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-times-nearly-one-hour-sources-say-812470?amp

One of the 13 options being considered....

How has the Yorkshire Post decided that the average journey time from Manchester to Leeds is 1 hour and 11 minutes - they are presumably averaging the time taken by Calder Valley stoppers (nearly 90 minutes) and the TransPennine Express services (around 50 minutes)? The average time might remain unchanged if there are more stoppers on the classic routes after HS2 / NPR.
 
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The Queen's Speech has confirmation of the next stage, of getting Phase 2A between Birmingham and Crewe properly on to the statute book. See Page's 96 & 97:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...839035/Queen_s_Speech_background_briefing.pdf

The purpose of the Bill is to:
● Provide the powers to build and operate the next stage of the High Speed
Two (HS2) network (Phase 2a).
The main benefits of the Bill would be:
● Bringing the improved connectivity of HS2 to more cities in the north, sooner.
The main elements of the Bill are:
● Powers to compulsorily acquire the land needed for the railway, construct the
railway, and operate it.
● Deemed planning permission to deliver the scheme. The details of planning
will be developed on a site-by-site basis in coordination with the local planning
authority.
● Setting out the way railway regulation will apply to HS2.
● Modification, or disapplication, of existing legislation that would apply to
construction of the scheme, reflecting the fact that the scheme will have been
approved by Parliament.

Territorial extent and application:
● The Bill’s provisions would apply in the main to England, with clauses 34-39
and schedule 28-29 applying and extending to England, Wales and Scotland.

Key facts
● The Phase 2a route is 36 miles long, running from a spur from the Phase One
route, at Fradley, near Lichfield. It connects to the West Coast Main Line
south of Crewe.
● A review led by Doug Oakervee is considering HS2’s benefits and impacts;
affordability and efficiency; deliverability; and scope and phasing, including its
relationship with Northern Powerhouse Rail.
HS2 journeys north of Birmingham will be up to 13 minutes faster than they
will be following the construction of Phase One of HS2.
● The journey time between Crewe and London will be cut from 90 minutes
today, to 55 minutes.
● Trains will stop at Crewe, allowing passengers on trains to and from Crewe to
connect with HS2 services.
● The Bill was introduced in the House of Commons in July 2017.
 
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kevin_roche

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I assume the impending dissolution of parliament puts the review on hold?
Government continues to operate unchanged until the result of the election is announced. I think the people doing the review will continue to turn up and review until told otherwise.
 

WatcherZero

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50280270

HS2 review criticised by deputy chair of panel

Opponents of the HS2 high-speed railway linking London and the north of England say the government's review of the project is set to be a whitewash.

The deputy chair of the HS2 review panel, Labour peer Lord Berkeley, says he has been given no opportunity to influence the final report.
He is a vocal critic of the project.
The government says it has been clear no panel member would have a veto, and that it would be inappropriate to pre-empt the recommendations of the review.
Lord Berkeley also speculated that publication of the review has been put on hold until after the general election and the appointment of a secretary of state for transport.


In a tweet he said: "My role as dep chair of the Oakervee Report on HS2 finished yesterday. Report not finished and no opportunity to influence conclusions.
"We are told that, when completed by Doug O [Oakervee] and the DfT secretariat, it will be locked into the DfT vaults for the new S of S [secretary of state] to publish."
A spokesman for the Department for Transport would not confirm when the report would be published, telling BBC News the "Oakervee review will conclude in the autumn".


...


If the Hatchet Man things hes being marginalised then thats a good sign for the project.
 

Class 170101

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Government continues to operate unchanged until the result of the election is announced. I think the people doing the review will continue to turn up and review until told otherwise.

But presumably its publication is subject to purdah now? Certainly no decision will be made until after the election and I wouldn't be surprised if no decision is made until after the Christmas recess perhaps even until after 31 January 2020.
 

squizzler

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I am not sure why they are bothering with the review still. Pay mr Berkley for his time, file the report, such as it is, in the secure paper shredding bin, get some spades in the ground and start building already!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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But presumably its publication is subject to purdah now? Certainly no decision will be made until after the election and I wouldn't be surprised if no decision is made until after the Christmas recess perhaps even until after 31 January 2020.

I think formal purdah starts when the house is dissolved (Wednesday?).
After that there is no means to publish anything official until the new government is in place.
The DfT officials will be the custodians until then.
Mind you, we might get some clues when the manifestos are published.
I suspect the major parties will try and evade a commitment either way.
 
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