61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
There's also a number (I forget the exact figure) of "class 170 equivalent" units that Northern are obliged to introduce at the tail-end of the franchise period.
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Northern Unit Refurbishments
- Thread starter darloscott
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If they're cascades (which they'll likely be) then i'll be counting them as additional units to the initial 243 (im doing the same with the 323s from WMT)
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I think it's a fair assumption that they won't be new units, but there's only a limited number of "170 equivalent" units available once EMR and TfW have taken the ones from GA and WM. The franchise agreement is quite vague on what is meant by "170 equivalent", so it's possible that 158s or 175s could meet that requirement. That might be all that's available anyway, particularly if Ireland is still after some UK units.
You really need to stop thinking of this 243 legacy fleet refurbishments. As with nearly every franchise over the last 20 years things can change very quickly.
Bear in mind the 2004 Northern franchise included no growth with no additional units, however many units were introduced from elsewhere to bolster the fleet when they became available (think 150, 158, 319, 322).
The fact that Northern have decided to do away with the 319’s and retain and even take on extra 323’s is a big hint of the changes made to the fleet plans. They even ordered 3 extra 195’s which was above the original plan.
I'll stop thinking about it once Northern confirm the number has changed or until the last unit goes into refurbishment (whichever comes first) , otherwise the plan still is that 243 units are going to be refurbished and out of the 243 there's only 234 (most likely sprinter cascades other TOC's) so there's still 9 units missing
I don’t think Northern will actually confirm anything for you. The figures relating to current fleet cascades speak louder than the original press release from April 2016. Fleet changes have been made superseding the original plan, it’s plain to see surely.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Indeed. The Northern "We Are Transforming" webpage, which still has the 243 number, also still says 98 new trains, which does not include the additional 3 ordered last year.
The last of the refurbished 319s will not be returned until the 17 ex-WMT refurbished 323s arrive, so clearly the latter will form part of the eventual total of refurbished trains. The final figure will be considerably more than 243.
Can I ask what you mean by the bit in bold
Their tweets (albeit they are scheduled) still confirm 243 units are going to be refurbished though the number of new trains being ordered has changed to 101 on their tweets so im confused about the 243 units if it has changed
Either way if 9 DMU cascades join the fleet next year then I'll count those as part of the initial 243 units. If not then im counting only counting the current units that Northern are planning to keep ( 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s, 170s, 323s and 333s) as part of the initial fleet going for refurbishment and regardless of whether the final number of the units that are initially going for refurbishment is 243 or 234 anything that joins after (such as the 323s from WMT and the 170 equivalents and any cascades after they join) will be counted as additional units
(this is my personal countings and beliefs and I understand and respect that people may count the additional units as part of the initial units going for refurbishment)
83 class 150's(at the moment 78 but 5 coming from GWR)
7 class 155's
47 class 156's
53 class 158's
16 class 170's
16 class 333's
17 class 323's
= 239 units
so i count 4 missing from 243 units.
add 26 class 323's from west midlands totals 265 units.
265 minus 43 class 323 that were not in the plan =222 units.
Then add the 319's in the northern fleet which were originally 32 =254 units but to make 243 units northern only needed 21 class 319's in the original plan which i think were correct a few years ago.
7 class 155's
47 class 156's
53 class 158's
16 class 170's
16 class 333's
17 class 323's
= 239 units
so i count 4 missing from 243 units.
add 26 class 323's from west midlands totals 265 units.
265 minus 43 class 323 that were not in the plan =222 units.
Then add the 319's in the northern fleet which were originally 32 =254 units but to make 243 units northern only needed 21 class 319's in the original plan which i think were correct a few years ago.
jonesy3001
Established Member
northern will be getting the PRM mods out of the way before they can refurbish the sprinter fleet, the 323s should all be done by easter due to them now staying with northern with a further 17 coming from WMT/LM.
does anyone have any rough predictions for when the whole fleet will be fully refurbished?
Firstly, Only 17 323 units are going to transfer from West Midlands leaving 9 units still with WMT so Northern will have 34 units and not 43
Secondly, I can gather that the original plan back in 2016 was for only 21 319 units to be kept with the others either being converted into 769s or being transferred to other operators.
Thirdly, unless 4 more DMU's join Northern next year 239 units is where im drawing the line and everything else will be counted as additional units (such as the 17 323 units from WMT)
Greybeard33
Established Member
No, the original plan, as set out in the 2015 franchise agreement, did not foresee 769s. The 769 conversion programme was not announced until December 2016, to mitigate electrification delays.
The original plan was for 32x319s, all to be refurbished. 5 of these (unspecified which) were to be returned to Porterbrook after the 331s entered service, leaving 27 with Northern until the end of the franchise. Subsequently Northern, Porterbrook and the DfT agreed that all 8 of Northern's 319/4s would be converted to 769s, leaving a fleet of 24x319/3s. Of these, 19x319s would then have been retained until the end of the franchise, after 5 were returned.
Due to delays in the 769 programme, Porterbrook provided 3 additional 319s (372, 373 and 446) on short term loan (446 has already been returned, leaving 26 currently with Northern).
Now Northern and Porterbrook have agreed that Northern's 17x323s will be refurbished and retained (not in the original plan) and that Northern will additionally acquire 17x323s currently with WMT, for an eventual fleet of 34. The remaining 26x319s will be progressively returned to Porterbrook as the 331s, 769s and refurbished 323s enter service.
Cascade of the WMT 323s is dependent on delivery of the replacement Class 730 units and will not be completed before 2021 at the earliest.
jonesy3001
Established Member
Never believe what the twitter page says as they don't know what's going on either.
Just going round in circles again with same conversation.
Just going round in circles again with same conversation.
RealTrains07
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Feb 2019
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- 1,759
Am I colour blind? because I always see the front as dark blue instead of purple
palmersears
Established Member
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- 20 Sep 2011
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- 1,485
You're not alone, to me they're blue and white.
OTRail
Member
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- 14 Jul 2019
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- 529
It’s relatively similar to the type of blue firstgroup used to use on their dynamic lines/barbie livery as a base so you’re not wrong.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's blue with a very slight hint of red in it, I think. Definitely not purple. If anything a very dark violet.
They're blue and white to me too
All I can see is the blue to be honest
thealm
Member
What Class 158’s are currently out for refurbishments?
RealTrains07
Established Member
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Whatever the colour still quite an odd change considering all the other northern trains have a white set of doors at each end of the train
Andrew Holland
Member
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- 62
Except classes 150 and 319 however. There must be a reason why but I can't think of what that is!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I thought it was that with end-doored stock (155/156/158) the blue ends mean the doors nearest the cab are white to contrast, whereas with stock with doors at thirds (150s, 195s and all EMUs) this isn't the case.
Additionally the 150/2s crew doors are painted to contrast as they're available for the public when working in multiple, but the unpowered crew doors on 150/1s are never available for the public so don't need to be.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Only passenger doors are highlighted. As others have mentioned, Class 150/2 "cab doors" are passenger doors when the gangways are in use, though for that to be the case you have to have drawn the short straw from the random unit generator.
superkev
Established Member
Seems to have gone quiet again here with no units from works I can see for this or last weekend. Still around 35 dmus requiring PRM mods.
K
K
Andrew Holland
Member
- Joined
- 7 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 62
Obviously the doors are painted whatever colour they are to provide contrast to the body colour adjacent to it and for almost all Northern stock with doors-at-thirds, the blue ends before the first set of passenger doors (cl. 150, 195, 319, 323, 331). So the real question is why are there some odd ones out, those being cl. 170 and 333 which has the blue extend beyond the first passenger doors and hence white doors. I'd put that down to whoever did the repaints on the 170s and 333s not understanding the specifications properly, so it's just a mistake and not something intentional to signify something (which is what I first thought it was, unless this is actually just meant to signify stock that will work services out of the Leeds area only?!). You'd at least think that they'd have got consistency on trains from the same manufacturer (i.e. 195/331/333).
mikemcniven
Member
323234 has reentered services following full PRM medication works and refurbishment.
Northern 323234 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Northern 323234 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr