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30 minute delay announced, departed after 12 and left passenger behind

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Carlisle

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"Ladies and gentlemen, we will be delayed here for approximately 30 minutes while an engineer attends, however please do be aware that we could end up with the problem solved sooner than that
Absolutely, just as any National Express coach driver explains before a refreshment break the exact time the coach departs & not to be late as it doesn’t wait .
 
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gazzaa2

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Sorry to go against the grain here. But if there was an official announcement that the train would depart 30 minutes late, then they need to stick with that, even if circumstances change. Whoever made such a specific announcement is at fault.

They'd usually state more "currently running 30 minutes late" which of course can change.

I've been caught out a few times on the live departures when a train is running, say, 10 minutes late, so I get to the platform maybe a few mnutes minutes later than normal time and just missed it. The website is partly at fault for not updating correctly but I'm still taking a risk in not going there on time.
 

pt_mad

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As far as I know the whole of the automated announcement system, where there is one, will usually announce delays based on current running estimates, and will announce 'the....to....is delayed by approximately ...minutes'. The key word being approximately. If someone disappeared to the shop over the road and it made up 5 mins they wouldn't have much of a case to blame to operator with the claim that it should now adhere to the new delayed estimated times as a station departure time.

An estimate is just that. And most of the electronic customer information departure boards say either expected on them or 'exp' in front of the time where a service is late.
 

pt_mad

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A good example of this could be when the LM Crewe to London service used to run via the Stoke on Trent loop. Now if a service was delayed leaving Crewe, say 25 late, passengers at Rugeley might be looking at the expected time being 20 minutes late on the board.

Now, if they disappeared off the station and the train was then diverted mainline direct to Stafford to make up time, it could end up on time at Rugeley and someone who was banking in it being late as a certainty would miss it.

The point being that someone wishing to catch a train needs to be on the platform in good time for it's booked departure time to be sure they will be able to board it when it calls.
 

Wychwood93

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Ah, but was the announcement "this train will be delayed by 30 minutes" or "this train is likely to be delayed by 30 minutes" or "this train will be delayed by approximately 30 minutes" or "this train will be delayed by up to 30 minutes", all of which have different meanings?

Saw something similar at Shrewsbury. The Heart of Wales train was announced as delayed by 90 minutes (!) because of a track fault. Of course, perhaps the necessary repair would have been completed sooner - but sitting on the Dogbox, or on Platform 3 at Shrewsbury for 90 minutes is unappealing.

Not sure there's a single correct answer to be honest, but not a good outcome for the passenger/s involved.
The OP did not specify the delay - apart from 30 mins - for myself a similar situation at Bournemouth on Saturday. It was, shall we say, a somewhat stormy day, 50 mph speed restrictions due to the 'stormy' bit. Myself and a couple of chums were heading to Poole beer festival, close to Branksome station. On arrival at Bournemouth we were advised that there was a delay due to lack of traincrew - anticipated departure of 10 or 20 past the hour (11.10/11.20) - turned out to be the latter. The guys and gals in control and the boxes are quite often juggling with a very fluid situation - very hard to give up to the minute advice when stock and crew are all over the place. You may have a driver but no guard (we still have them down here!) or v.v - no issues on our service - just a lot of thirsty folk wanting to get to the 'festival' knowing the return journey could well be a blank. As ex-job it is much easier for me to appreciate what actually goes on and, in my case, forward what I know to my travelling chums. I had a cider afternoon in case anyone may be interested - very nice.
 

pt_mad

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If it's going to come to liability when a train makes up time when it's delayed and people disappear and hold the operator responsible, then you'd end up having to do away with expected delayed times.

Quite often the only sensible advice now regards how late will this train be leaving is don't honestly know, usually anything from 5 minutes to over an hour when this has happened before. And that will annoy some people, but it may cover better than about 15 minutes and it leaves after 10 minutes because the signal is cleared.
 
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Wychwood93

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If it's going to come to liability when a triangle makes up time when it's delayed and people disappear and hold the operator responsible, then you'd end up having to do away with expected delayed times.

Quote often the only sensible advice now regards how late will this triangle be leaving is don't honestly know, usually anything from 5 minutes to over an hour when this has happened before. And that will annoy some people, but it may cover better than about 15 minutes and it leaves after 10 minutes because the signal is cleared.
We do not want the 'railway to litigation'! Can you imagine (good album) holding political parties to their manifesto promises? - thought not! We would all be quids in.
 

pt_mad

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We do not want the 'railway to litigation'! Can you imagine (good album) holding political parties to their manifesto promises? - thought not! We would all be quids in.
The point is though if the situation was a train MUST depart at the delayed approximate expected time given on the automated departure board, then you'd end up with estimated delayed times being done away with. And the system would have to revert to 'delayed' for everything which wasn't on time, so as to not cause people to walk away or arrive late, with the train then making up time (which most passengers will want it to).
 

Spartacus

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What a lot of people don't realise, or in some case even believe, is that delays, exactly as Wychwood93 says, are very fluid, they can go up and down depending on the circumstances, and as investigation is done the reason can, and often does, change. If the TOC suddenly finds a spare driver responding to their phone and able to work a service when previously they thought they had none, that's great, if you've got off in the meantime, well tough. It's happened to me and a mate before at York, got off a TPE waiting crew for a quick pint, before the train set off earlier than expected. Ah well, another beer while waiting for the next one, it's a learning experience. The biggest mistake here is leaving luggage unattended on the train. In this day and age he could have returned to find the platform cordoned off by police officers with weapons a bit more dangerous than a truncheon.
 

pt_mad

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There's a couple of issues at play. The one about trains coming to stand at the station with a vague idea it might be for some time, without being certain, and passengers actively wanting to get off to go to the shop or have a cigarette outside.
The most frequent question obviously being how long will we be here. If the answer was given anything from a few minutes to over an hour, but as soon as we get the green were going, quite often the next question would be so a while then enough time to have a fag? Even if covering by saying we might go straight away if we're allowed if there's a whiff of it could be a while people may weight that up as well it's worth going for a cigarette. And on return could say 'you said it might be a while' even though you added we could be on the move asap.

The other issue being that increasingly when there are blockages further along the line, trains can often be brought to a stand in stations indefinitely even if it's 80 miles away. I can only assume this is due to the risk of passengers attempting to self evacuate if left at a stand for excessive periods in the middle of nowhere. Such as during the snowstorms.

Certainly now it seems like it takes less of an incident to start queueing trains up further down the line in station platforms than it used to. The doors might be opened after a short while for a breather even though if the trian had kept going, on time, it still might not have stopped within that time for any booked calls but passengers get itchy when it stops moving. Only my personal perception mind.
 

Horizon22

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That's a tricky one. When I've done announcements I tend to use approximately with a time frame if appropriate ("approximately 20-30 minutes). But each delay as we know is different. Fairly sure most staff would be trained to say "we are delayed due to X. Unfortunately I don't know how long this will take, when I have further information I will let you know".

In some instances you do know the timeframe (driver is delayed from an inbound service for instance). If you announce 30 and it actually ends up being 12, I'd probably make a further announcement ("Hello all, some good news, I have been advised that the train will shortly be ready to leave, the doors will shortly be closing"). Won't help those who have gone for a long walk though. Delays can be very fluid and evolving; I've often told people its an "expected" delay, so keep an eye on things

You either hold the train for 1 passenger for 18 further minutes, or allow the 1+ other passengers to get to their destination with a reduced delay.
 

Undiscovered

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From my experience:
'Good evening everyone. I have some important info about your onward journey today. Unfortunately, the signaler has just told me the line ahead is blocked, due to trespassers. We'll remain here at the station for the time being. I don't have a time yet for our departure, but I'll keep you informed.'

*2 minutes later*
'The signaler has just been in touch and has informed me that the line ahead is blocked due to trespassers and he is awaiting the arrival of Transport Police. As a result, we will remain here in the platform awaiting further instructions. If you wish to stretch your legs on the platform, you can do and I will let you know when we will be departing. As I say, I have no time for our onward journey, but do remain with us and we will get you to your destination.'
*cue exodus of passengers to taxi rank and me becoming all sorts of wonderful insults. Some passengers step out onto the platform*

*further three minutes*
'Well folks, signaler has just let me know we can go forward, so we'll be leaving shortly.'
*steps out, blows whistle. Folks on platform stub out fags, jump back on. Wait 15secs. No one else. Close doors, safety check, buzz buzz. Away we go. Folks at taxi rank, outside station, wave fists and gesticulate*

Next day... please explain why I left passengers behind at station...

Explanation given, no problems, carry on.
 

Meole

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Unattended luggage on a departing train should be a serious concern, I was travelling to a meeting nearby on 7 July 2005 and have no doubt that such circumstance will come round again.
 

mmh

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Unattended luggage on a departing train should be a serious concern, I was travelling to a meeting nearby on 7 July 2005 and have no doubt that such circumstance will come round again.

A train without "unattended luggage" on it is very unusual.
 

pt_mad

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From my experience:
'Good evening everyone. I have some important info about your onward journey today. Unfortunately, the signaler has just told me the line ahead is blocked, due to trespassers. We'll remain here at the station for the time being. I don't have a time yet for our departure, but I'll keep you informed.'

*2 minutes later*
'The signaler has just been in touch and has informed me that the line ahead is blocked due to trespassers and he is awaiting the arrival of Transport Police. As a result, we will remain here in the platform awaiting further instructions. If you wish to stretch your legs on the platform, you can do and I will let you know when we will be departing. As I say, I have no time for our onward journey, but do remain with us and we will get you to your destination.'
*cue exodus of passengers to taxi rank and me becoming all sorts of wonderful insults. Some passengers step out onto the platform*

*further three minutes*
'Well folks, signaler has just let me know we can go forward, so we'll be leaving shortly.'
*steps out, blows whistle. Folks on platform stub out fags, jump back on. Wait 15secs. No one else. Close doors, safety check, buzz buzz. Away we go. Folks at taxi rank, outside station, wave fists and gesticulate*

Next day... please explain why I left passengers behind at station...

Explanation given, no problems, carry on.
Excellent depiction of how things often go and to add it's likely that if the guard announces I don't currently have a timescale yet, they will still have a queue of passengers waiting to ask how long will we be here, as soon as you and they step off onto the platform.
Passengers would quite often rather have a closest educated estimate based on experiences rather than just delayed, although this comes with the consequences of 'you said' when things change.
 

alxndr

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I had a slightly similar situation a couple of years ago in the snow on a very crowded train up from Portsmouth. Made it to Westbury where they believed there wasn't a driver available due to the road conditions so advised that there would be a wait of around 30 minutes and to get a cuppa/have a fag/go for a pee/stretch legs but to stay in the station. I'd just made it halfway through the underpass when a driver was magicked up from somewhere and we were all called back.

They did wait a while to make sure everyone was back on, as it had been their advise to make use of the station facilities and space, but there certainly weren't any complaints that we'd got going again, even those who had lost their seat.
 

Belperpete

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On a recent journey to Gatwick, the guard required me to get off the train part-way through the journey and go to the booking office to buy a ticket, as she wasn't able to sell me a through ticket. She said I could leave my luggage on the train, and she would make sure the train wouldn't leave without me. Even so, I was decidedly dubious about leaving my luggage unattended, made sure I took my mobile and passport with me, and kept a very close eye on the clock to make sure I got back well before departure time.
 

Old Yard Dog

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At Chester yesterday there was a 30 minute delay announced to the Cardiff train due to lack of crew. An American (I think) passenger slipped off for a coffee or a fag, not sure which, leaving coat and bags behind. Train left after 12 minutes without said passenger. Fortunately the guard was alerted and his luggage offloaded for safekeeping in the booking office at Wrexham. Now I, and I am sure most UK passengers, would not take such a risk but others might not be so “streetwise”. What is the railway’s liability in such a situation, and what would be the position if he had an advance ticket?

I was at Chester on Saturday trying to get to Northampton (for a bus to Kettering to where no trains were running). There were huge numbers of people awaiting the 0835 to Milton Keynes and Euston, well above the capacity of the 5-car train. This was no doubt due to the fact that Lime Street was closed and a number rail planners were showing both Chester and Warrington BQ as routes from Liverpool to London. Some recommended the latter from/to where Liverpool services were being rerouted with 9-car pendolinos operating, but most didn't. And to make matters worse the 0855 TfW to Crewe was showing as cancelled.

What the staff at Chester should have done is directed waiting passengers on to the Northern 0821 to WBQ to connect with the 0903 to EUS to reduce congestion but, of course, they didn't. Being probably a little more au fait than your average "normal", I took this option. Does anybody know if people were left behind at Chester?

After changing at Stafford, the onward journey then became slower as LNWR were short of staff and were operating an emergency timetable. Passengers on the Trent Valley line were detrained into the pouring rain at Rugby, told to catch a train to Northampton and then change again. And the announcer at Rugby officiously told people not to dare get onto a direct Virgin train if they held LNWR only tickets. So much for a joined up railway!

I wonder whether the staff shortages on TfW and LNWR had anything to do with the rugby union World Cup final?? It seems some of today's railwaymen don't like working weekends as exemplified by their penchant for striking on Saturdays every time there is an industrial dispute.
 

Grumpy Git

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I've yet to hear either a station or on board announcement that I can decipher clearly. Does anyone ever think of testing the clarity of the system?
 

bobbyrail

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It may have been better to announce "This train maybe delayed in departing by up to 30 minutes due to a shortage of crew, and will depart as soon as staff are available" .
 

Phil from Mon

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Thanks for the replies, an interesting selection. As i said in the OP, I’m pretty sure very few UK passengers would have done this, but other nationalities have different experiences and expectations about how trains work, although if I was travelling abroad I don’t think I would ever leave my luggage. Interesting point by Old Yard Dog about announcements at Chester too - we got caught out there last week around a late-running NT service to Manchester and were told to stay on 3A for the TFW service which turned out to be even later.
 

221129

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Unattended luggage on a departing train should be a serious concern, I was travelling to a meeting nearby on 7 July 2005 and have no doubt that such circumstance will come round again.
It's really not as long as its treated accordingly.
 

Grumpy Git

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It may have been better to announce "This train maybe delayed in departing by up to 30 minutes due to a shortage of crew, and will depart as soon as staff are available" .

You'll never hold down a job coming up with sensible ideas like that.
 

323235

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It's about being sensible with announcements. If you're going to announce a specific time for a delay maybe follow that up with something along the lines of 'this is subject to immediate change and anyone leaving the train does so at their own risk'




That's completely different to the situation discussed here though. It's reasonable for people to get off a train that has been announced as cancelled but not when a train is simply announced as delayed. Clearly in your situation, whoever made the announcement would have been in the wrong but it's nice to know that you'd resort to violence should anyone 'dare' to blame you

It's not that different a situation - people were given a reason to get off the train and the train then set off without them, thus they were delayed or abandoned their journey due to incorrect information.
 

packermac

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So youd prefer to more than double the delay just in case a passenger has decided to pop off for a brew? I suspect you're in the minority.
The rail industry can not have it both ways. Trains are not allowed to depart early it seems even if they only stop for drop offs, e.g. mainline charters, or depart early to a timetable. If they announced, or were silly enough to announce a 30 minute delay it would be reasonable to expect it not to depart earlier.
Not many British folks would have left their bags I suspect, but I am sure there were others who may have thought or did get of for a coffee or something to eat.
 

221129

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The rail industry can not have it both ways. Trains are not allowed to depart early it seems even if they only stop for drop offs, e.g. mainline charters, or depart early to a timetable. If they announced, or were silly enough to announce a 30 minute delay it would be reasonable to expect it not to depart earlier.
The train isn't departing early. So the point is moot. However there are a variety of scenarios where a train is allowed to depart early. Set down only being one of them.
 

Master29

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At Chester yesterday there was a 30 minute delay announced to the Cardiff train due to lack of crew. An American (I think) passenger slipped off for a coffee or a fag, not sure which, leaving coat and bags behind. Train left after 12 minutes without said passenger. Fortunately the guard was alerted and his luggage offloaded for safekeeping in the booking office at Wrexham. Now I, and I am sure most UK passengers, would not take such a risk but others might not be so “streetwise”. What is the railway’s liability in such a situation, and what would be the position if he had an advance ticket?
In the US they`re conscious of potential terrorist threats. I find it highly unlikely the individual concerned would not have known this. Leaving baggage around unattended would be asking for trouble. This is besides the UK policy on unattended luggage.
 

pt_mad

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The rail industry can not have it both ways. Trains are not allowed to depart early it seems even if they only stop for drop offs, e.g. mainline charters, or depart early to a timetable. If they announced, or were silly enough to announce a 30 minute delay it would be reasonable to expect it not to depart earlier.
Not many British folks would have left their bags I suspect, but I am sure there were others who may have thought or did get of for a coffee or something to eat.
But if passengers ask for an estimate, and queue up next to staff for one when no timescale is given, which often happens, an estimate that is given as an estimate when pushed for a rough idea should be taken as it is, a rough idea given because passengers would rather have that than just no idea.

As has already been said, this is exactly what the automated screens do at stations across the whole industry. Give an 'expected time' based on current running information. They can't be blamed because the train went and made up 3 minutes and someone in the pub over the road missed it when it was 10 minutes late anyway.
 

Gems

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Oh for goodness sakes. Let's stop trying to defend those with no brains.

I'll just walk off and leave my luggage on the train and have a ciggy. I mean everything that is wrong is laid bare for all to see. I just cannot defend an idiot, they are what they are.
 

dcsprior

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On an aircraft (admittedly you can't get off!) the captain will announce "we are being held for xx minutes, however if a slot becomes available we could depart earlier". It's not hard for the guard to announce "we will be delayed for xx minutes but could depart earlier when the problem/hold-up's sorted, please do not leave the train."

An analogous situation at an airport is where there's a delay before boarding. In this case the screens typically display something like "Delayed to 20:30" / "Gate Info At 19:40" on a cycle. I have often wondered what'd happen in that case if the passenger next looked at the screen at 19:41 to discover the delay had come forward significantly and the plane had already taken off. At Stansted the screens go one further and also say "Relax" when a gate isn't announced or about to be announced, it'd seem very reasonable in that case to say that the screens were telling you not to look again for gate info until 19:40
 
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