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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

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Mathew S

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Greybeard33 said:
But the stock currently operating the Alderley Edge services (a mix of 75mph 15x's and 142s) cannot reliably meet 100mph 319 timings.
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The Sprinters (150s, usually) don't seem to have any problems keeping to the timetable, in my experience of using them on the Alderley Edge services regularly.
 
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Greybeard33

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Llama said:
In fairness, 319s can't meet 100mph 319 timings, I'd be willing to bet there's not a single one ever got to 100mph up to Bolton, they're woeful above 80mph. Even getting to the 95mph max permissible speed coming down the gradient the other way from Bolton towards Manchester is only fleetingly manageable by Clifton, just before the permissible speed drops to 75mph begore Agecroft.
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But surely 319 timing loads are based on the measured real world performance of the 319, not an assumption that 100mph will be achieved regardless of gradient? What matters for timetabling is whether or not a 75mph 15x can achieve the same time between stops on this route (particularly Bolton to Salford Crescent non stop).
 
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jfollows

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The inability of the DMUs to keep to their timings pales into insignificance compared to the delays inflicted on them by their inability to navigate the central Manchester route between Deansgate and Piccadilly unimpeded, surely?
 
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Llama

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Yes my post was a poor attempt to highlight the irony of the timing load for 319s.
 
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childwallblues

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jfollows said:
The inability of the DMUs to keep to their timings pales into insignificance compared to the delays inflicted on them by their inability to navigate the central Manchester route between Deansgate and Piccadilly unimpeded, surely?
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Excellent comment. i was on the 1458 MIA-LIV (319) service yesterday. We got held at Deansgate yesterday as an Intermodal was held at Deansgate and obviously was blocking Castlefield Junction. We did not move very far before biing stopped at Ordsall Lane to let an 802 get in front of us. Finally we were stopped at Roby to let a 185 pass.
 
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absolutelymilk

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jfollows said:
The inability of the DMUs to keep to their timings pales into insignificance compared to the delays inflicted on them by their inability to navigate the central Manchester route between Deansgate and Piccadilly unimpeded, surely?
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Alternatively, the inability of the DMUs to keep to their timings might be ok on its own, but when added to the delays inflicted on them by their inability to navigate the central Manchester route between Deansgate and Piccadilly unimpeded, the problem is compounded!
 
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Grannyjoans

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The inability of the DMUs to keep to their timings creates bigger problems as they miss their booked path through Deansgate to Piccadilly and then get held up even longer than usual
 
anamyd

anamyd

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anthony263 said:
769450 has left crewe heading to carnforth tonight.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/ ... 4/detailed
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RTT
404
Not found
The overhead line equipment for this page is not installed and electric traction cannot proceed further. It may never have been installed, or has been removed.

Just in case there was meant to be a page here, we've asked the website MOM to investigate further.
 
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B

Bovverboy

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So the plan appears to be as follows, SSuX this week.

567W/5Q01 2311 Crewe TMD (E) - Carnforth D&UGL (M: Actual time from Crewe 2315)
582W/5Q02 0105 Carnforth D&UGL - Crewe (T: Actual departure from Carnforth D&UGL 0056)
596W/5Q03 0256 Crewe - Carnforth D&UGL (T: Actual departure from Crewe 0227)
509X/5Q04 0504 Carnforth D&UGL - Crewe TMD (E) (T: Actual departure from Carnforth D&UGL 0337)

These are replacing the previously scheduled journeys 568W/583W/597W/508X, which have been cancelled, the only difference being that the latter were scheduled to run to/from Carnforth station rather than Carnforth D&UGL.
 
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a_c_skinner

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It would be interesting to know if these are electric or diesel or a bit of both. IF it is diesel it looks like vindication for people who said they'd not keep time! Anyhow lets hope this is the start of a phoenix-like re-birth and a project that works. At least the doors and wipers have had a good try out on Thameslink.
 
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AndrewE

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a_c_skinner said:
It would be interesting to know if these are electric or diesel or a bit of both. IF it is diesel it looks like vindication for people who said they'd not keep time! Anyhow lets hope this is the start of a phoenix-like re-birth and a project that works. At least the doors and wipers have had a good try out on Thameslink.
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Let's hope the testing phase is moving to completion and we can get some into service. Look forward to hearing whether it is running on diesel or electric. RTT says its diesel loco-hauled ECS!
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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They had one on diesel on the GCR over a year ago so whatever that series of tests revealed its taken over a year to resolve to get to this stage.

Given this is the start of main line testing its going need a few months of running before confidence is built in reliability and presumably ORR will have to give approval for passenger use mainline testing so May 2020 timetable!
 
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a_c_skinner

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Some people on here hypothesised that it was simply a matter of it being inconvenient to start testing because of the other new trains in the pipeline. I've no idea if this is true but does anyone know what the holdup really was? Or was it just the wrong time to test? If they have fixed something they've done well to keep it under wraps because the vehicles are spread across several sites none of which are secret a la GCHQ.
 
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js1000

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86247 said:
I will have to eat my hat I think never thought I would ever see one running especially on diesel
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I'll be reserving judgment on them until it's been consistently bashed around for 18+ hours a day! That's the acid test.
 
Ladder23

Ladder23

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long live the 319's! I mean 769's.. ;) its great to see them coming on strong still
 
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Greybeard33

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a_c_skinner said:
Some people on here hypothesised that it was simply a matter of it being inconvenient to start testing because of the other new trains in the pipeline. I've no idea if this is true but does anyone know what the holdup really was? Or was it just the wrong time to test? If they have fixed something they've done well to keep it under wraps because the vehicles are spread across several sites none of which are secret a la GCHQ.
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I have no inside knowledge, so the following is just deduced from previous posts, by those who seemed more knowledgeable, in this very long thread. I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

When the first two units were delivered to Northern, a gauge clearance issue was discovered - part of the exhaust system fouled the lower sector structure gauge. After the exhaust plumbing was modified, it seems that the emissions testing on the engine installation had to be repeated before the units could be cleared to run on the main line. These Stage IIIB compliant engines rely on Selective Catalytic Reduction in the exhaust sytem to meet the emissions requirements, so presumably the modification must have invalidated the original testing. Apparently there are only a few specialist test houses equipped to carry out the tests and they had a big backlog, causing a delay of several months until a slot could be obtained. Possibly there might have also have been supply chain issues in fabrication of the new parts for retrofit and production.

There was a further suggestion upthread that there may have been brake system issues, due to the additional weight in the driving trailers. There was some brake testing carried out a couple of months ago, presumably successfully.
 
Chris125

Chris125

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That sounds very credible, the exhaust issues somewhat reminiscent of the woes suffered by the 172s?
 
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Llama

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From what I've heard, from a reliable source, there was an issue with exhaust gauge clearance, but it was more related to a crunch as the first unit negotiated a tight curve departing Loughborough sidings...
 
anthony263

anthony263

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769450 seems to be going well on diesel power. Hopefully the problems have been dealt with and things can be ramped up.

Sure northern and tfw would love to get their units out in service and get their moneys worth.
 
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