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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Northhighland

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If you're keeping precisely to topic then you may be right - the Scotrail HST shambles is probably a consequence of trying to come up with a cheap solution to the expensive problem of providing Scotland with a decent intercity rail service. That 156 to Middlesbrough would suit your argument very well too, I'll give you that. Let's not start on the state of the rail network of NE England though.

But there's nothing third world about EGIP or the 385s, the new Caledonian Sleeper, the mind bending hybrid ferries or, on your doorstep, late and over budget schemes like AWPR and Aberdeen to Inverurie rail redoubling, complete with its £12m wayside halt at Kintore.

I think that it's money wasted that's the problem rather than under investment. And there's no more absurd waste so far than those HSTs. Assuming they're paying for them at all, I wouldn't be...
EGIP is a sensible enough project just poorly delivered, late and way over budget. Same goes for the HST project, Caledonian sleeper all over budget and very late.

Don't start on Calmac ferries, they are a whole other level of gross mismanagement. The choice of vessels leaves a lot to be desired, severe overhaul of all west cost ferry services and how they work is long overdue.

Investment needs to be less political, far too often wrong decisions are made for political reasons, that is not meant as a party political point it happens in all governments of every colour.

On HST, it does look like a decent enough solution if we could get our trains working like all the other operators...
 
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Highland37

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I really don't understand these positive comments on HSTs, such as the above, given that the data just don't support the view.

On ferries, please, just invest in fixed links and move into the latter part of the 20th century.
 

Mordac

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I really don't understand these positive comments on HSTs, such as the above, given that the data just don't support the view.

On ferries, please, just invest in fixed links and move into the latter part of the 20th century.
You'd struggle to build a bridge to Lewis.
 

Esker-pades

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UK is rapidly heading towards being a 3rd world country. Decades of under investment both publicly and privately are starting to take their toll.
There are problems, but 3rd world? Really?

I also question your use of the phrase '3rd world' at all, but that's a purely academic debate.
https://itaint-necessarilyso.square...16/3/1/geopolitical-musings-from-a-southerner
For anyone interested in world development, social sciences, or any global topic for that matter, using the term ‘global South’ to refer to lower-income countries and the ‘global North’ for wealthy nations is becoming more and more normalized in academic and non-academic publications. International NGOs such as Oxfam, for example, use this terminology.

The terms for distinguishing the rich from the poor have evolved over time. ‘Third world’ and ‘first world’, though older, are still in use. And while ‘developing’ nations sounds a lot better than ‘underdeveloped’ nations (as they were once referred to), political correctness may be doing more harm than good. Why? Because instead of describing reality (or bringing us closer to it), it creates false categories that are grossly misleading. Take the ‘first world’ and ‘third world’ terms as examples. These originated during the Cold War, with ‘first world’ referring to the US and its allies, and ‘second world’ referring to the USSR and its allies. Third world just referred to neutral and non-aligned countries. Under these criteria, Finland, Sweden and Ireland are all technically third world nations!

If you Google search for these terms, you’ll find that the ‘global North’ normally refers to North America and Europe, and parts of wealthier Asia (like Japan and Korea). A geographical exception is usually made to include Australia and New Zealand. On the other hand, ‘global South’ normally includes Africa, Latin America and most parts of Asia.
 

Highland37

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You'd struggle to build a bridge to Lewis.
Or indeed nearly every Scottish island currently served by ferry

Re Lewis bridge, yes that would be a stupid idea as it would show that the thinking is very backward given there are much shorter routes.

Re islands more generally, other countries have demonstrated that the above statement is not true. At least 75% of inhabited islands can be linked.

Back to the disaster that is the HSTs though. I am booking my daughter on the Citylink bus on Friday and Sunday which is a replacement bus anyway.
 

Highland37

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There is no new timetable other than in the imagination, and I don't see how there could be one until at least December 2020. As far as I've been told they can just about hold on to the existing schedule so long as they don't lose the four threadbare and debranded 170s (416-420, they're so gruesome that even I've started to notice numbers).

.

So there is no new timetable in December? I had a look on the Scotrail website and they haven't bothered uploading the new timetable, from 14th December. They really are an utter joke.

But you can book a train and work out the times from that. The railway really is the worst managed transport service around. I want it to work but it's so often badly done and difficult.
 

Northhighland

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I really don't understand these positive comments on HSTs, such as the above, given that the data just don't support the view.

On ferries, please, just invest in fixed links and move into the latter part of the 20th century.

The reliability figures for the GWR GTI sets or the XC sets modified by Wabtec all seem way better than Scotrail, we could get their levels of reliability we would be somewhere close to a decent service.
 

scotraildriver

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The reliability figures for the GWR GTI sets or the XC sets modified by Wabtec all seem way better than Scotrail, we could get their levels of reliability we would be somewhere close to a decent service.

Neither GWR or Cross Country have had to train any staff, (Scotrail training well over 1000 including alot of maintenance staff), make major changes to infrastructure (depots, fuel.points, stabling roads etc), or deal with the problems associated with the unique-to-scotrail buffet conversions which are proving troublesome. Like comparing apples to oranges.
 

43096

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Neither GWR or Cross Country have had to train any staff, (Scotrail training well over 1000 including alot of maintenance staff), make major changes to infrastructure (depots, fuel.points, stabling roads etc), or deal with the problems associated with the unique-to-scotrail buffet conversions which are proving troublesome. Like comparing apples to oranges.
Not strictly true on the training. Both operators would have to train staff on the new doors and GWR have had much training of drivers and guards as the sets moved from long distance (HSS) to local (ex-Wessex Trains) services which have different crews.
 

alangla

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Neither GWR or Cross Country have had to train any staff, (Scotrail training well over 1000 including alot of maintenance staff), make major changes to infrastructure (depots, fuel.points, stabling roads etc), or deal with the problems associated with the unique-to-scotrail buffet conversions which are proving troublesome. Like comparing apples to oranges.
Not to mention the lack of shore supplies meaning extra cold starts... Wonder how many engines have run out of hours because of that bit of early idiocy.
I’m still utterly bewildered as to why anyone in Abellio (a company that had never operated an HST) thought these were a good idea when every other franchise bid in the country seems to be based on new stock.
 

scotraildriver

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Not to mention the lack of shore supplies meaning extra cold starts... Wonder how many engines have run out of hours because of that bit of early idiocy.
I’m still utterly bewildered as to why anyone in Abellio (a company that had never operated an HST) thought these were a good idea when every other franchise bid in the country seems to be based on new stock.

None of the bids for Scotrail involved new stock. First and Nat express both simply proposed a few more 170s to strengthen services. The HST idea looked like a considerable upgrade at least on paper and was a big factor in Abellio winning the bid. Everyone associated with the HST idea are long gone from the company.
 

Northhighland

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Neither GWR or Cross Country have had to train any staff, (Scotrail training well over 1000 including alot of maintenance staff), make major changes to infrastructure (depots, fuel.points, stabling roads etc), or deal with the problems associated with the unique-to-scotrail buffet conversions which are proving troublesome. Like comparing apples to oranges.

the power cars are the same. The mk3 coaches with sliding doors required the same training for all companies. The excuses are really wearing thin there seems no light at the end of the tunnel. We are facing another summer of short formed trains on the HML which is simply not acceptable in any shape or form. there has been plenty time to sort out the infrastructure.

There is going to be an outpouring of public anger soon. This performance is simply not good enough. they can't even get the unmodified classics to run semi-reliably.
 

PG

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The HST idea looked like a considerable upgrade at least on paper and was a big factor in Abellio winning the bid. Everyone associated with the HST idea are long gone from the company.
  1. Why did they leave? ie resigned or pushed?
  2. Did they go as they could see that things were going to get worse? ie abandon a sinking ship
  3. Has their departure caused some of the problems or are you better off without them?
 

47271

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So there is no new timetable in December? I had a look on the Scotrail website and they haven't bothered uploading the new timetable, from 14th December. They really are an utter joke.

But you can book a train and work out the times from that. The railway really is the worst managed transport service around. I want it to work but it's so often badly done and difficult.
Well, there's a new timetable in December, but it's exactly the same as the old timetable give or take a minute here or there. None of it is reliant on HST timekeeping, which is just as well since there'll be virtually no HSTs operating it.
 

cf111

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Took the 1727 Inverness-Queen Street service last Friday. Looked at Journeycheck before heading to the station and noticed that my train was due to be two carraiges, deep joy. Left to go to the station early because of that, just as well I did as I had to stand in line for 15 minutes to collect my tickets. One of the machines is broken and for some reason they've gotten rid of the one in the ticket office. At this point the departure board was showing my train as "delayed' but no estimated time of departure. The scrolling message, for some reason, was telling us that the train was formed of both two and four carriages.

The platform was confirmed before the train present, so after gaining access to the platform without incurring the wrath of the barrier dragons, we waited for a few minutes before a 170 arrived - not a bad result when you're convinced you're going to be crammed in to a 158 all the way to Glasgow!

The 170 was cold, unrefurbished with no power sockets, dirty and my seat had given up the ghost as far as padding was concerned, but at least it was a train and nobody had to stand. It will be over £60 for an off-peak return (sans railcard) between Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh when the fares go up in the new year. If I didn't qualify for a railcard I wouldn't be using the train given the price and the uncertainty of service. There are some very good prices with advances but it's not always possible to plan far enough in advance.
 

GrimShady

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None of the bids for Scotrail involved new stock. First and Nat express both simply proposed a few more 170s to strengthen services. The HST idea looked like a considerable upgrade at least on paper and was a big factor in Abellio winning the bid. Everyone associated with the HST idea are long gone from the company.

I still think it's a marvelous idea vs what would have been new stock i.e. rotten 800s, the refurbs are a lovely traveling environment.

It's the execution that's been horrendous.
 

Deltic1961

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I thought all the extra journeys between Inverurie and Montrose starting in December were dependent on HST's running between Aberdeen and Inverness to free up rolling stock?
 

jimm

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I’m still utterly bewildered as to why anyone in Abellio (a company that had never operated an HST) thought these were a good idea when every other franchise bid in the country seems to be based on new stock.

The timing of the Scotrail franchise award was a bit earlier than most of the ones involving orders for lots of shiny new trains - changes in financing costs have probably had a part to play in that.

And the Chiltern power-door Mk3 conversions in 2012 were generally reckoned to be a success (and had shown the bodyshells were still good for years to come once some corrosion was tackled) but it was believed that switching to inserting sliding pocket doors would save time and money compared with the Chiltern project's approach of rebuilding the coach ends and fitting plug doors. At the same time, the Class 43s coming off lease at GWR all had MTU engines no more than 10 years old with lots of life left in them.

Sadly for passengers in Scotland we know it has not worked out like that, while Laira's HST maintenance expertise presumably has a lot to do with the GWR and XC sets seeming to have far fewer issues than Scotrail.
 

Northhighland

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Do we know if that is number 8 (which was supposed to come up in mid September)?

surely will be coming some 10 weeks after it was supposed to. Anyone know if more sets are close to completion or is it just more slippage in the programme.
 

YorkshireBear

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Considering how many sets are down in Doncaster is there any hope that there will be a big bang and loads released at once now (hopefully) snagging works are complete. I sense I'm being ever hopeful.
 

Highland37

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Surely snagging works are those which mean the train can still operate but needs attention to some specific issues? It would seem that given the low use of HSTs, the issues are bigger.
 

GrimShady

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This may have been covered before but what exactly are the issues with the refurbs?
 

gingertom

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This may have been covered before but what exactly are the issues with the refurbs?
I don't think there's never been a definitive answer from Wabtec in the public domain. The general consensus is the corrosion remedial work required on the MK3s was far greater than anticipated, much much greater. Along with a significant quantity of skilled staff being poached to Hitachi's maintenance facility nearby.
 

InvHst

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I don't think there's never been a definitive answer from Wabtec in the public domain. The general consensus is the corrosion remedial work required on the MK3s was far greater than anticipated, much much greater. Along with a significant quantity of skilled staff being poached to Hitachi's maintenance facility nearby.

This isn't the full reason behind the lack of deliverys scotrail refused to take any more of the units until the issues with current sets have been dealt with remember we are sitting with 2 refurbs in Inverness which haven't entered service yet and were delivered a good few months back now. These have had part failures and still no update on when they will enter service. Ha25 nearly entered service last week on the 6am Inverness to aberdeen however it failed in the depot that morning. They want fully working sets not have arsed sets that break down over issues with doors/electrics things like that they need a reliable product and the first 7 only 4 can really be classed as reliable
 
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