Forbidden from using power socket in station waiting room

AnkleBoots · 5 Nov 2019

I was charging my phone in a waiting room and was told by a burly security guy that I was not allowed to do that.

The socket was next to an out-of-use vending machine. The waiting room was probably designed before mobile phones and definitely before people had train tickets on their phones.

Not sure whether the security guy was just wanting to be difficult or whether he had instructions from the station manager. He was from a private firm (not in railway uniform) - would he have the right to demand my name and address if I failed to comply?

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Bletchleyite · 5 Nov 2019

There is legal precedent for "theft of electricity" to be prosecuted in this case. It does however seem rather churlish to tell people not to do this unless there was already a sticker on it stating "not for public use", as the convention nowadays is that a socket is available for public use if it is in a public place and there's nothing saying it isn't for public use.

yorkie · 5 Nov 2019

AnkleBoots said:
...would he have the right to demand my name and address if I failed to comply?

They'd probably ask you to leave and if you refused things would escalate. Of course you could put in a complaint to the TOC but they might make allegations that you were in some way "abusive". It's not a road I'd recommend going down.

Instead I'd consider writing to the TOC explaining about your poor experience.

Mag_seven · 5 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There is legal precedent for "theft of electricity" to be prosecuted in this case. It does however seem rather churlish to tell people not to do this unless there was already a sticker on it stating "not for public use", as the convention nowadays is that a socket is available for public use if it is in a public place and there's nothing saying it isn't for public use.

There is also the issue if the socket was faulty and caused damage to the phone - I doubt somehow the OP would have any redress to the TOC if the socket was not for public use (even if not labelled as such).

AnkleBoots · 5 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
They'd probably ask you to leave and if you refused things would escalate.

Clearly the correct thing to do was comply with the request but I am curious to know whether a security guy has the authority to ask a ticket-holding passenger to leave the station, missing the train?!

yorkie · 5 Nov 2019

AnkleBoots said:
Clearly the correct thing to do was comply with the request but I am curious to know whether a security guy has the authority to ask a ticket-holding passenger to leave the station, missing the train?!

Not in itself but the problem is that if situation escalates to a certain level then they would have that authority, though an investigation may uncover they made an unreasonable request and/or overstepped their remit as defined by the TOC. In the end both parties may be deemed 'at fault'.

NotATrainspott · 6 Nov 2019

Older sockets on board trains which aren't for public use often aren't properly set up to meet electrical standards, because all they are used for are simple resistive or motor loads (keeping liquids hot or running hoovers) where that doesn't matter. However, for a socket in a mains-connected building to not meet standards would suggest there's something much more problematic going on. Either the socket wasn't set up correctly in the first place, or it has somehow failed. In either case I think there's a public safety problem in having it powered up at all in a public place.

ScottGallagher · 6 Nov 2019

NotATrainspott said:
Older sockets on board trains which aren't for public use often aren't properly set up to meet electrical standards, because all they are used for are simple resistive or motor loads (keeping liquids hot or running hoovers) where that doesn't matter. However, for a socket in a mains-connected building to not meet standards would suggest there's something much more problematic going on. Either the socket wasn't set up correctly in the first place, or it has somehow failed. In either case I think there's a public safety problem in having it powered up at all in a public place.

At Lancaster there is a desk installed in each waiting room with plug points, in the platform 3 waiting room there are legacy sockets on the brick walls that I have used with no trouble, compare that to Barrow where you can see they have all been plated over !!

daodao · 6 Nov 2019

AnkleBoots said:
I was charging my phone in a waiting room and was told by a burly security guy that I was not allowed to do that.

The socket was next to an out-of-use vending machine. The waiting room was probably designed before mobile phones and definitely before people had train tickets on their phones.

Not sure whether the security guy was just wanting to be difficult or whether he had instructions from the station manager. He was from a private firm (not in railway uniform) - would he have the right to demand my name and address if I failed to comply?

Assuming that the socket was not specifically marked "for public use", you should be grateful that you were merely asked to desist from what you were doing and that the official was satisfied that you complied. You could have been reported or arrested for theft (of electricity).

LMS 4F · 6 Nov 2019

To be pedantic electricity can't be stolen, as per the Theft Act 1968, so there is an offence of Abstracting Electricity to cover the omission. All to do with the definition of Property.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2019

Mag_seven said:
There is also the issue if the socket was faulty and caused damage to the phone - I doubt somehow the OP would have any redress to the TOC if the socket was not for public use (even if not labelled as such).

I believe that's why railway ones intended for use for cleaners have "not for public use" on them, not because the railway actually cares if you use it or not (and indeed they are widely used). Those ones on older stock can have fairly widely varying voltage, I believe.

Fawkes Cat · 6 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It does however seem rather churlish to tell people not to do this unless there was already a sticker on it stating "not for public use", as the convention nowadays is that a socket is available for public use if it is in a public place and there's nothing saying it isn't for public use.

A source for this, please.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
A source for this, please.

There is no source for it because it's convention, not a rule nor precedent. For instance, sockets in places like coffee shops and bars are not marked, and yet public use of them is widely accepted.

I suspect this would make a prosecution difficult unless the person carried on after being told off, or there was a notice.

Lemmy99uk · 6 Nov 2019

As has already been mentioned, most of these sockets were installed a long time before the proliferation of rechargeable mobile devices and were never intended for public use.

Some years ago, at a station I managed, a passenger was taking advantage of a standard 3 pin socket to charge their mobile phone. Unfortunately, a toddler tripped over the trailing cable and split their head open. Following that incident I fitted locks to all the waiting room sockets to allow their use by authorised personnel only.

Journeyman · 6 Nov 2019

I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume you just have the right to use any socket, and if anyone told me to stop, I wouldn't argue.

Bovverboy · 6 Nov 2019

Lemmy99uk said:
Some years ago, at a station I managed, a passenger was taking advantage of a standard 3 pin socket to charge their mobile phone. Unfortunately, a toddler tripped over the trailing cable and split their head open. Following that incident I fitted locks to all the waiting room sockets to allow their use by authorised personnel only.

I think a good question here would be, why was there a trailing cable? It sounds as though the passenger chose, presumably for security reasons, to keep his/her phone close to their person, but the socket was some distance away. Clearly, if there is a trailing cable, there is a safety hazard, irrespective of whether or not a socket is intended for public use or not.
Who was ultimately blamed for the toddler sustaining injury?

Scotty · 6 Nov 2019

AnkleBoots said:
Clearly the correct thing to do was comply with the request but I am curious to know whether a security guy has the authority to ask a ticket-holding passenger to leave the station, missing the train?!

Stations are private property.

ac6000cw · 6 Nov 2019

Bovverboy said:
Who was ultimately blamed for the toddler sustaining injury?

Why is it so important to 'blame' someone for every minor accident that happens these days? Is it just a facet of a base human desire for vengeance?

A lot of people don't seem to have the imagination to 'think through' that a trailing cable might be a trip hazard - it just doesn't occur to them, even though it should. The parent of the toddler should also have been looking out for hazards as well.

Fawkes Cat · 6 Nov 2019

(On the purported convention that anyone can use a power socket that's in a public place)

Bletchleyite said:
There is no source for it because it's convention, not a rule nor precedent. For instance, sockets in places like coffee shops and bars are not marked, and yet public use of them is widely accepted.

But surely something that is a convention will have been mentioned fairly widely in public - whether that's newspapers or online forums or somewhere else? Maybe I just haven't looked in the right place, but this is the first reference I've seen to it. I've certainly seen people charging their phones in pubs, but (to the extent that I've thought about it) I've assumed that the pub has allowed this not because there's a convention to allow it, but because they don't want to annoy a customer who might go and have their next drink somewhere else.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2019

Scotty said:
Stations are private property.

They are, but whether a security guard has that right will depend on the wording of their contract.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
But surely something that is a convention will have been mentioned fairly widely in public - whether that's newspapers or online forums or somewhere else? Maybe I just haven't looked in the right place, but this is the first reference I've seen to it. I've certainly seen people charging their phones in pubs, but (to the extent that I've thought about it) I've assumed that the pub has allowed this not because there's a convention to allow it, but because they don't want to annoy a customer who might go and have their next drink somewhere else.

That's still a convention - people widely do it without being stopped from doing it, and provision of passenger sockets is very wide on public transport, often without specific signage on them. That the person believed they were carrying out a reasonable act which they and others often did would very likely be taken into account in a Court were an "abstracting electricity" charge considered, at least in terms of what sentence was handed down. However, with a sign "not for public use" that would be removed as it would be obvious that that usage was not allowed.

I think you are using a stronger definition of "convention" than I am - something formal - whereas a convention (rather than a rule) is generally totally informal, it's just something people do.

I always think it's best to have prominent signage stating one should not do something that might be seen as reasonable by many but is not allowed. It avoids any kind of embarrassment or disquiet, and if enforcement is then needed it's reasonable for it to be fairly heavy handed in the first instance. For instance it's common to see "do not park bicycles against this fence" signs in London as parking bicycles against fences is an accepted thing to do generally if visiting those premises. That avoids the embarrassment of being told off or the bicycle being removed.

WelshBluebird · 6 Nov 2019

I mean, given that many ToC's (and Network Rail who manage some of the larger stations) are rolling out power sockets that are meant to be used by passengers in waiting rooms, I don't see why someone using a power socket in a waiting room is that much of a surprise! If it isn't meant to be used by passengers then surely just put a sign to say so (or maybe have one of the plastic plug cover things you can get)? Otherwise how on earth are people supposed to know which ones they can use and which ones they can't?

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2019

WelshBluebird said:
I mean, given that many ToC's (and Network Rail who manage some of the larger stations) are rolling out power sockets that are meant to be used by passengers in waiting rooms, I don't see why someone using a power socket in a waiting room is that much of a surprise! If it isn't meant to be used by passengers then surely just put a sign to say so?

Precisely, all it needs is a quick Dymo type sticker stating "Not for public use".

Fawkes Cat · 6 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's still a convention - people widely do it without being stopped from doing it, and provision of passenger sockets is very wide on public transport, often without specific signage on them. That the person believed they were carrying out a reasonable act which they and others often did would very likely be taken into account in a Court were an "abstracting electricity" charge considered, at least in terms of what sentence was handed down. However, with a sign "not for public use" that would be removed as it would be obvious that that usage was not allowed.

I think you are using a stronger definition of "convention" than I am - something formal - whereas a convention (rather than a rule) is generally totally informal, it's just something people do.

I always think it's best to have prominent signage stating one should not do something that might be seen as reasonable by many but is not allowed. It avoids any kind of embarrassment or disquiet, and if enforcement is then needed it's reasonable for it to be fairly heavy handed in the first instance. For instance it's common to see "do not park bicycles against this fence" signs in London as parking bicycles against fences is an accepted thing to do generally if visiting those premises. That avoids the embarrassment of being told off or the bicycle being removed.

The problem with your definition of a convention is that it's impossible to distinguish from an idea that you - and you alone - have. Although the fact that no-one else here has challenged your argument suggests that there is at least a degree of acceptance that plugging in to someone else's power socket is a reasonable thing to do.

WelshBluebird · 6 Nov 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
Although the fact that no-one else here has challenged your argument suggests that there is at least a degree of acceptance that plugging in to someone else's power socket is a reasonable thing to do.

As I said, TOCs are literally installing power sockets in waiting rooms specifically for passenger use though. So your argument doesn't really fit either.

kaiser62 · 6 Nov 2019

There are lots of observations about conventions and what is or is not reasonable, but the overriding issue is the law, whether it is the railway bye-laws or statues.
I'm afraid that the belief that just because something isn't labelled it entitles you to help yourself is false in terms of the law, and however many times you get away with a judge isn't likely to see that as a reason to let you carry on.
This explains how the law sees taking something because you think you are entitled to it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
theft by finding doesn't apply here because electricity is intangible, and as an earlier post mentioned, an offence of abstracting electricity would have been committed.
So let't not get confused on caught up in what you think should apply. Parliament has already done that for us, as have the railways with the bye-laws. Thankfully Common Law allows for discretion on the part of law enforcement which we all enjoy on a daily basis, but that can lead to abuse.

mark-h · 6 Nov 2019

Lemmy99uk said:
Following that incident I fitted locks to all the waiting room sockets to allow their use by authorised personnel only.

I hope the sockets were locked off using proper equipment- too many places use the plastic "socket protectors" which increase the level of risk (more information)

WelshBluebird · 6 Nov 2019

kaiser62 said:
There are lots of observations about conventions and what is or is not reasonable, but the overriding issue is the law, whether it is the railway bye-laws or statues.
I'm afraid that the belief that just because something isn't labelled it entitles you to help yourself is false in terms of the law, and however many times you get away with a judge isn't likely to see that as a reason to let you carry on.
This explains how the law sees taking something because you think you are entitled to it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
theft by finding doesn't apply here because electricity is intangible, and as an earlier post mentioned, an offence of abstracting electricity would have been committed.
So let't not get confused on caught up in what you think should apply. Parliament has already done that for us, as have the railways with the bye-laws. Thankfully Common Law allows for discretion on the part of law enforcement which we all enjoy on a daily basis, but that can lead to abuse.

So passengers shouldn't use any power sockets then? What about the ones that are actually meant for passengers? As many ToC's are rolling out.

gingerheid · 6 Nov 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
The problem with your definition of a convention is that it's impossible to distinguish from an idea that you - and you alone - have. Although the fact that no-one else here has challenged your argument suggests that there is at least a degree of acceptance that plugging in to someone else's power socket is a reasonable thing to do.

It's unclear you would accept, but if you visit a coffee shop or a typical large waiting room you'll see lots of devices plugged in, and you'll see an inbalance between signs saying "not for public use" or wacky shaped sockets or locked sockets and signs saying "you can use this" that will suggest that the default belief has changed to that it is ok to charge devices unless told otherwise.

Personally I feel that the growth of mobile ticketing means that this should be expected, and also that revenue protection staff should now have to carry a power bank (or should have a way of checking tickets by phone number).

stj · 6 Nov 2019

Years ago I would use the socket found in the luggage rack of a Mk3 to charge video batteries.

Forbidden from using power socket in station waiting room

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