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GWR Dec 19 timetable

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jimm

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Thanks Mintona. I'm guessing announcements everywhere that only one section will be platformed at Stonehouse! Mind you a few carriages will be off the platform in Stroud...

Why would you say that? The extended platforms are long enough to allow part of each set in a 2x5 formation to be opened at Stonehouse - six or seven coaches in total, I believe.
 
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Mintona

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Why would you say that? The extended platforms are long enough to allow part of each set in a 2x5 formation to be opened at Stonehouse - six or seven coaches in total, I believe.

Yes indeed. Stonehouse will now take six IET coaches, so the front coach of the rear set will be on the platform as well as the whole of the front set.
 

Mintona

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peterson

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I’ve only read the first bit so far. I just wanted to point out there are currently three trains between 16.30 and 19.30 that omit Reading, the 17.42, 18.37, and 19.12, rather than the two that you have specified in the piece.
I've defined the window by arrival time, which may or may not be intuitive to a local audience. But that's why it didn't pick up the third service you list. Thanks.
 

jimm

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My Reading-centric write-up of the December changes. Feedback, corrections welcome
http://readingonthames.com/2019/10/27/december-19-timetable-preview/

If this line in your blog post is mean to be a reference to things I have posted here about the removal of calls at Reading by Cotswold Line services, I'm not 'theorising'.

A google search on this subject turns up a discussion board theorising that GWR were actually in favour of maintaining Reading calls on these services, but Network Rail insisted on losing them in order to clear the trains from the Reading area more quickly to ensure the new Bristol Express timetabled moments later gets a clear run through too!

Having had sight of two draft versions of the timetable last year and earlier this year with all the peak trains from Paddington to the Cotswold Line leaving Paddington at xx.50, in what is the normal departure slot for the Cotswold Line in the new timetable (plus a 17.30 additional, which might have been an obvious one to give a non-stop run to Oxford), with stops at Reading shown, I'd say it was pretty clear what the initial intent seems to have been.

But in a final version of the draft, that was in effect presented as a fait accompli to user groups in late summer, those xx.50 slots were handed to a couple of the Didcot Class 387 workings, meaning the Cotswold services got pushed back to xx.58 and ended up with the Bristol services right behind them.

Someone at GWR had to accept what was being proposed by Network Rail - it's not really a case of Network Rail insisting. How widely shared the proposed change was within GWR and at what level a decision was taken, I don't know.
 

Kite159

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I bet the commuters from Oxford & beyond can't wait to have to attempt to squeeze along with commuters from Banbury onto a 4 coach voyager for the run to Oxford to change for a 80X to take them towards home. Those voyagers are already busy.

...I wonder how many will consider it too much of a hassle and will switch to driving instead.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I bet the commuters from Oxford & beyond can't wait to have to attempt to squeeze along with commuters from Banbury onto a 4 coach voyager for the run to Oxford to change for a 80X to take them towards home. Those voyagers are already busy.

...I wonder how many will consider it too much of a hassle and will switch to driving instead.

What’s wrong with using the direct GWR services which are still there? It’s only some not ALL that have been removed?

Reading dep 16.48 fast to Oxford only, 10 minute interchange at Oxford for local DMU to Moreton-in Marsh.

Reading dep 17.59 fast to Oxford and then principle Cotswold stations to Hereford.

Wouldn’t have thought commuters at Reading wouldn’t be much later than these?
 

30907

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What’s wrong with using the direct GWR services which are still there? It’s only some not ALL that have been removed?

Reading dep 16.48 fast to Oxford only, 10 minute interchange at Oxford for local DMU to Moreton-in Marsh.

Reading dep 17.59 fast to Oxford and then principle Cotswold stations to Hereford.

Wouldn’t have thought commuters at Reading wouldn’t be much later than these?
The Cotswold line services are also used by Reading-Oxford commuters (I imagine a large number), and for them the service is significantly worse.
 

jimm

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What’s wrong with using the direct GWR services which are still there? It’s only some not ALL that have been removed?

Reading dep 16.48 fast to Oxford only, 10 minute interchange at Oxford for local DMU to Moreton-in Marsh.

Reading dep 17.59 fast to Oxford and then principle Cotswold stations to Hereford.

Wouldn’t have thought commuters at Reading wouldn’t be much later than these?

What's wrong with it?

Let's see - perhaps because we have had 13 years of every single FGW/GWR fast service calling at Reading on the way to Oxford and the Cotswolds - which we won't as of next month, with the westbound weekday peak service decimated (three Cotswold services and one Oxford fast passing straight through non-stop).

Meanwhile every single train heading the other way in the morning peak (and the rest of the day and week) will continue to call at Reading. With the alternative being touted for late afternoon and early evening to Oxford and beyond by GWR being to use XC services which, as Kite159 notes, are not exactly blessed with lots of spare seats for all the people who won't be able to use a GWR train with way more seats. Where is the sense in that?

And you clearly don't have a clue quite how many passengers are waiting on the platform at Oxford when the current 16.22 Paddington to Great Malvern arrives there at 17.23, formed by a nine-car IET. They will now be expected to pack into a two-car Turbo (as most of them are heading to the stations at the eastern end of the Cotswold Line, rather than Worcestershire), along with anyone changing off the service from London and Reading. Some may switch to the new 17.45 departure for Malvern but plenty are still going to want to be on a 17.2x departure from Oxford that has been in the timetable for many years now in various forms.
 

irish_rail

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What's wrong with it?

Let's see - perhaps because we have had 13 years of every single FGW/GWR fast service calling at Reading on the way to Oxford and the Cotswolds - which we won't as of next month, with the westbound weekday peak service decimated (three Cotswold services and one Oxford fast passing straight through non-stop).

Meanwhile every single train heading the other way in the morning peak (and the rest of the day and week) will continue to call at Reading. With the alternative being touted for late afternoon and early evening to Oxford and beyond by GWR being to use XC services which, as Kite159 notes, are not exactly blessed with lots of spare seats for all the people who won't be able to use a GWR train with way more seats. Where is the sense in that?

And you clearly don't have a clue quite how many passengers are waiting on the platform at Oxford when the current 16.22 Paddington to Great Malvern arrives there at 17.23, formed by a nine-car IET. They will now be expected to pack into a two-car Turbo (as most of them are heading to the stations at the eastern end of the Cotswold Line, rather than Worcestershire), along with anyone changing off the service from London and Reading. Some may switch to the new 17.45 departure for Malvern but plenty are still going to want to be on a 17.2x departure from Oxford that has been in the timetable for many years now in various forms.
For once I'm with jimm. This new timetable is ridiculous in the evening peak for the Cotswold. The reading stops need reinstating somehow or other.
 

JN114

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We’re still 39 days from introduction. The publicity message has all been around times are changing, habits will need to change. Shall we at least wait to see how the public heed that advice before advocating more stops in everywhere?
 

irish_rail

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We’re still 39 days from introduction. The publicity message has all been around times are changing, habits will need to change. Shall we at least wait to see how the public heed that advice before advocating more stops in everywhere?
If I need to get to a Cotswold line stop from the south west how will heeding GWRs advice help me? It will just require a long wait at reading now and no doubt increased business at the three guineas at reading!!!
 

Wilts Wanderer

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It's worth observing that if NR had wired to Oxford then there would be the potential for 8 and 12-car 387s to run through to Oxford rather than terminating at Didcot.
 

jimm

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We’re still 39 days from introduction. The publicity message has all been around times are changing, habits will need to change. Shall we at least wait to see how the public heed that advice before advocating more stops in everywhere?

There's a bit of a difference between telling people times are changing and the reality of the railway taking an axe to a well-established service pattern - then advising people that their exciting new reality in the peak is to get on an overcrowded XC train, where they will be lucky to get a bit of a seat to perch on, and having to change trains half-way through what has, in the main for over a decade, been a direct journey on a train with adequate seating capacity.

And no one travelling from the Cotswold Line or Oxford into Reading will have to change their habits at all - as everything will still stop there.

It is plain enough looking at the difference between the draft timetables and what emerged at the last minute that this is all about what is convenient for Network Rail and GWR's operational needs, with what is convenient for passengers not considered. Even those getting from London to Oxford a few minutes quicker than on a train calling at Reading are unlikely to be overcome with gratitude to GWR.

It's worth observing that if NR had wired to Oxford then there would be the potential for 8 and 12-car 387s to run through to Oxford rather than terminating at Didcot.

People wanting to get from Reading to Oxford have, not surprisingly given the time penalty, never been that keen on using trains that stop at all the intermediate stations, which is what the 387s do out to Didcot now and would continue to do even if they could get to Oxford - and are irrelevant in the context of the loss of afternoon and early evening peak through services between Reading and the Cotswold Line, which is the nub of the matter for those living in places beyond Oxford.
 

nw1

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There's a bit of a difference between telling people times are changing and the reality of the railway taking an axe to a well-established service pattern - then advising people that their exciting new reality in the peak is to get on an overcrowded XC train, where they will be lucky to get a bit of a seat to perch on, and having to change trains half-way through what has, in the main for over a decade, been a direct journey on a train with adequate seating capacity.

And no one travelling from the Cotswold Line or Oxford into Reading will have to change their habits at all - as everything will still stop there.

It is plain enough looking at the difference between the draft timetables and what emerged at the last minute that this is all about what is convenient for Network Rail and GWR's operational needs, with what is convenient for passengers not considered. Even those getting from London to Oxford a few minutes quicker than on a train calling at Reading are unlikely to be overcome with gratitude to GWR.



People wanting to get from Reading to Oxford have, not surprisingly given the time penalty, never been that keen on using trains that stop at all the intermediate stations, which is what the 387s do out to Didcot now and would continue to do even if they could get to Oxford - and are irrelevant in the context of the loss of afternoon and early evening peak through services between Reading and the Cotswold Line, which is the nub of the matter for those living in places beyond Oxford.

Although if those peak-only Didcot 'fasts' extended to Oxford, then they would become Reading-Didcot-Oxford only - fast enough presumably and would take the load off XC services.

One of the oddities of the Paddington-Oxford route is how the frequency of the fast services in the peak shows no improvement on the off peak, surprising given it's a commuter line. IIRC this still applies after the timetable change - if it was electric all the way to Oxford then the availability of 387s means this could be facilitated much more easily. In fact, IIRC an early draft of the post electrification timetable did show 3 fast trains an hour to Oxford in the peak - an hourly beyond-Oxford and a half-hourly Oxford terminator, presumably intended for 387s.
 

MarlowDonkey

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One of the oddities of the Paddington-Oxford route is how the frequency of the fast ervices in the peak shows no improvement on the off peak, surprising given it's a commuter line. IIRC this still applies after the timetable change.

In the peak, there are non-stop trains to Slough or Maidenhead, often 12 car 387s. No doubt they would continue to Oxford if Didcot to Oxford was electrified.
 

timstours

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No through trains from didcot parkway and swindon to beyond taunton will not go down well with a lot of people ,turning them out at bristol tm or parkway on to already overcrowded xc ,yet the evening penzance to pad still runs via swindon .
 

irish_rail

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No through trains from didcot parkway and swindon to beyond taunton will not go down well with a lot of people ,turning them out at bristol tm or parkway on to already overcrowded xc ,yet the evening penzance to pad still runs via swindon .
Indeed these trains are quite popular in the up direction in the morning before they were done away with (9.48 off plymouth I seem to recall). As you say, the beneficiary is xc who fill up the already full voyagers even more and force folk to change at bristol anyway. Not really progress in my opinion..
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Indeed these trains are quite popular in the up direction in the morning before they were done away with (9.48 off plymouth I seem to recall). As you say, the beneficiary is xc who fill up the already full voyagers even more and force folk to change at bristol anyway. Not really progress in my opinion..

I'm not sure if you're aware but on weekdays there will be an 09:38 from Didcot Parkway to Weston-super-Mare, Taunton and Exeter St. Davids (I'm booked on it to Exeter on the 02/01/20) - I believe it returns via Bristol Temple Meads at 13:06 (I'm coming back late afternoon that day).

Saturdays there's no direct services from Didcot to the South West.

Sundays the train from Didcot around 9am to Penzance leaves at 08:47 and terminates at Exeter St Davids.

I know the timetable won't please everyone but an 09:38 from Didcot to Exeter on weekdays is brilliant - better than when it use to leave at around 08:10 until what 2010/2011. Most people would visit Devon in the Spring to no later than September on a sunny day but with Exeter that's an any weather day.

I was gonna visit the Malvern Hills but that's too cold. So when I saw the new Exeter service from Didcot, I sort of quickly decided on that :)!
 

timstours

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I must have missed that one,better than nothing ,trippers to weston super mare from swindon will like that ,the 1057 or therabouts to paignton was locally called the pensioners special,however the 0827 to penzance was great for long day trips to the far southwest which will not be possible now at leat on a weekday
 

30907

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For once I'm with jimm. This new timetable is ridiculous in the evening peak for the Cotswold. The reading stops need reinstating somehow or other.
There appears to be a path at 1652 out of Padd which would allow the 1658 to make a RDG stop and keep well clear of the 1700.

I must have missed that one,better than nothing ,trippers to weston super mare from swindon will like that ,the 1057 or therabouts to paignton was locally called the pensioners special,however the 0827 to penzance was great for long day trips to the far southwest which will not be possible now at leat on a weekday

I think most travellers to the SW would prefer the B&H route - it's been open over 100 years! - and any services that run via Bristol need to be in marginal time, which has pretty much always been the case. Apologies to the inhabitants of Swindon....
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Well. Instead of my planned Castle HST adventure I can actually also get to and from Didcot Parkway and Carmarthen for in the region of £40-£45 (around £10 less with a 26-30 railcard if I get one).

How many coaches does GWR run to and from Carmarthen? I know it's an IET but just wondered.
 
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Nippy

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Melancholia

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Well. Instead of my planned Castle HST adventure I can actually also get to and from Didcot Parkway and Carmarthen for in the region of £40-£45 (around £10 less with a 26-30 railcard if I get one).

How many coaches does GWR run to and from Carmarthen? I know it's an IET but just wondered.

10 coaches as far as Swansea, then 5 coaches forward to Carmarthen. Opposite on return.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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10 coaches as far as Swansea, then 5 coaches forward to Carmarthen. Opposite on return.

That'll be interesting then - given that some 10-car IET's are at the minute prone to changing from A-E to G-L, I hope the front 5 coaches in arrival at Swansea if A-E (depending on how the train is formed) stay as A-E and that the other 5 move out the way. According to realtime, the GWR services to Carmarthen reverse here.

And 10 coaches from Swindon to Carmarthen then 5 from there including the opposite on the return is Sunday as well I assume?
 

JN114

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The Carmarthen(s) were amongst the first services to go over to IET operation, staff and punters alike are well used to which coaches proceed on west of Swansea - I haven’t heard of any coach letter mixups on the Carmarthens for a very long time now - the Swansea crews involved in working these services being well aware of the pitfalls that can cause the mixups and on the ball enough to prevent them.
 

jimm

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There appears to be a path at 1652 out of Padd which would allow the 1658 to make a RDG stop and keep well clear of the 1700..

The problem is that if you leave the Didcot-bound 387s where they are at xx.49 or xx.50, then an IET leaving Paddington two or three minutes behind would be stuck up the backside of said Class 387 well before Maidenhead, where they either move to the relief line east of the station, or, in the case of the 16.50, stop at platform 1 on the the main line and only switch to the relief at Ruscombe, west of Maidenhead. That is why the Cotswold services are being pushed back to xx.58 to give the 110mph 387s enough of a gap to get out of the way of 125mph IETs.

The efforts to stop those 387s messing up other services is what has resulted in the removal of the Oxford and Cotswold fasts from the xx.20 and xx.50 slots that they occupy for pretty much the whole of the day and slashes the fast service between the two key settlements in the outer Thames Valley at one of the busiest times of the day.

Whatever way you try to dress this up, it is not a good thing in any way, shape or form.
 

Mag_seven

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A google search on this subject turns up a discussion board theorising that GWR were actually in favour of maintaining Reading calls on these services, but Network Rail insisted on losing them in order to clear the trains from the Reading area more quickly to ensure the new Bristol Express timetabled moments later gets a clear run through too!

I would imagine there is a risk that the Bristol fasts may get checked anyway at Cholsey while the Oxford bound service in front crosses (or waits to cross) Didcot East Jn.

Is there not a way that the Oxford services could stop at Reading and while platform duties are being undertaken the Bristol fasts overtake? They are only two minutes behind the Oxford after all.
 

irish_rail

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I think May 2020 will be interesting, should see alot of changes I'd imagine to put right the mess we are gonna get next month!
 
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