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LNR 20.35 Liverpool to Birmingham 6/11/19 Cancelled

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bb21

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Why is it automatically LNWR's fault?

The "box" in question is Stafford, led to inbound 1F55 being cancelled, hence the cancellation reason above.

This is a perfect example of a little knowledge and open attribution data leading to wildly misleading accusations because it isn't properly understood.

It wouldn't even have been LNWR staff who coded it in the first place.
 

peter166

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Thanks for the information. Is there an explanation for the signal box at Stafford being closed?
How could a signal box on the WCML be closed during the early evening? It beggars belief !
 

The Planner

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Its not technically a box, its a (the only) workstation in Rugby ROC. Though if it was unmanned for some reason then it would cause carnage with multiple cancellations.
 

bb21

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Shift changeover and staff occasionally run late. It isn't always possible to get the outgoing member of staff to stay for longer.
 

bb21

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That's why I have always said delay attribution data should not be in the open data feed. It is a very specific regime and serves a well-defined purpose. Anyone not well-versed in its workings (and that includes some TOC execs and senior management) will only end up taking two and two and making five, helping no one.

I support reasons for service alterations being transparent, but that needs to be something removed from delay attribution data and be a system in its own right designed from the customer's perspective. Too many people inside and outside the industry seem to think delay attribution data is some sort of golden ticket to problem solving.
 

bb21

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The Liverpool to Birmingham ( and Euston ) LNWR service has generally become.quite poor.
Yes I know, but I just wish people would stop throwing accusations around before facts can be established.

There is enough negativity on this forum recently (much of it perfectly deserved I shall add) we could do without any unnecessary ones on top.
 

peter166

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So basically hundreds, if not thousands of passengers, have been massively inconvenienced by delayed and cancelled trains on the WCML because Network Rail had NOBODY available to man the work station in the Rugby ROC ?
Surely this contingency should be planned for ??
 

Bald Rick

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So basically hundreds, if not thousands of passengers, have been massively inconvenienced by delayed and cancelled trains on the WCML because Network Rail had NOBODY available to man the work station in the Rugby ROC ?
Surely this contingency should be planned for ??

It is. But even the best contingency plans come unstuck if the stars align perfectly wrongly.

Put it like this. There are about 10-15,000 signaller shift changes every day.

Now, how many times in a typical year have you been late for work or not able to go in at all on a day when you were supposed to be there at short notice? Multiply that by 10,000 / 365 and you have, very roughly, how many times a year such an issue happens with a signaller.

Normally there are at least three options:

1) ask the current signaller to stay on, or another signaller / supervisor to stay on.
2) get a spare signaller (if there is one), or the new supervisor (ditto) to take the reins
3) if it is a multiple workstation / panel area, get another signaller in the same location to work two workstations, with appropriate controls applied.

So, in a single workstation / single person box... If there is no supervisor, perhaps because of short notice sickness, and the current signaller is out of hours or simply can not stay, and the relieving signaller and the supervisor are both delayed on the way in, or one of them is off sick also, what do you do?
 
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peter166

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National Rail

Disruption to London Northwestern Railway services through Stafford

Incident created 06/11/2019 19.16

Route affected
London Northwestern Railway between Birmingham New Street and Liverpool Lime Street / Crewe; Between London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street / Crewe

Train operator affected London Northwestern Railway

DescriptionTrains are now running as normal following a brief signalling issue at Stafford, and also a fault on train between Stafford and Lichfield Trent Valley.

Why would the "brief" signalling issue supposedly only affect LNR ?
 

tsr

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Both signallers were unable to get in and both the previous ones were out of hours. Any of these 4 could have run the panel in other circumstances. A very rare combination, perhaps outside of extreme weather in the depths of winter.

Also goes to show the limitations of 12 hour shifts, which seemed to be an issue here as well. You have very little extra time to play with before fatigue kicks in and the signallers on duty cannot continue. One reason I particularly dislike such rostering in any railway command and control function.
 

Bald Rick

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Also goes to show the limitations of 12 hour shifts, which seemed to be an issue here as well. You have very little extra time to play with before fatigue kicks in and the signallers on duty cannot continue. One reason I particularly dislike such rostering in any railway command and control function.

Agreed.
 

Llanigraham

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No longer implausible then just simply unbelievable !!

Why is it unbelievable? There are plenty of examples over the years of lines being closed for a period because a panel or Box is uncovered. The signaller might have been delayed, he might have had an accident on the way to work, he might have called in sick and in all of those cases there might not be a Relief immediately available.
And although you can ask an 8 hour shift signaller to stay on he doesn't have to say yes, and if it is a 12 hour shift then you can't ask it at all.
 

Bletchleyite

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Also goes to show the limitations of 12 hour shifts, which seemed to be an issue here as well. You have very little extra time to play with before fatigue kicks in and the signallers on duty cannot continue. One reason I particularly dislike such rostering in any railway command and control function.

I don't like 12 hour shifts in any job at all, let alone a safety critical one. 8 hours is a "full working day" and is generally the period most people can maintain good attentiveness provided they get a decent break roughly in the middle.
 

BucksBones

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And as a result of this signalling problem in Stafford, the local northbound service from Euston I'm now waiting for is going to be delayed by at least half an hour. This stupid interworked timetable makes me want to scream, there is just no need for it. Sorry for re-stating the bleedin' obvious but I really hope for a massive corporate "Mea Culpa" and a return to pre-May 2019 style diagrams in May 2020.
 

Tom Quinne

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So basically hundreds, if not thousands of passengers, have been massively inconvenienced by delayed and cancelled trains on the WCML because Network Rail had NOBODY available to man the work station in the Rugby ROC ?
Surely this contingency should be planned for ??

Unfortunately you can’t just ask bill from the corner shop to man the Workstation, I’d of thought the meal relief man was used to cover a sickness vacancy short notice, there goes your cover at a blink of an eye.

It’s unusual thanks to the good will of staff to have a Workstation have to be closed but it happens.
 

Tom Quinne

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Both signallers were unable to get in and both the previous ones were out of hours. Any of these 4 could have run the panel in other circumstances. A very rare combination, perhaps outside of extreme weather in the depths of winter.

Also goes to show the limitations of 12 hour shifts, which seemed to be an issue here as well. You have very little extra time to play with before fatigue kicks in and the signallers on duty cannot continue. One reason I particularly dislike such rostering in any railway command and control function.


12hr rosters are fine, and much better than the body clock destroying 8hr or 8/12hr ones.

We all know that most routes are short staffed, like most of the railway when the roster Swiss cheese holes line up the trains stop.
 

Tom Quinne

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I don't like 12 hour shifts in any job at all, let alone a safety critical one. 8 hours is a "full working day" and is generally the period most people can maintain good attentiveness provided they get a decent break roughly in the middle.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday then off until the following Thursday to do three more with another week off and repeat.

The beauty of a well thought out 12hr roster, working upto 13 yes 13 safety critical turns potentially on the bounce is dangerous, but within a 8hr roster principle.

Signallers in single manned locations don’t get meal breaks either, they are expected to service their human needs when time allows.

Trying for a pee or making hot food when it’s all gone wrong outside, and the phone doesn’t stop.
 

Grumpy Git

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Both signallers were unable to get in and both the previous ones were out of hours. Any of these 4 could have run the panel in other circumstances. A very rare combination, perhaps outside of extreme weather in the depths of winter.

Also goes to show the limitations of 12 hourhour shifts, which seemed to be an issue here as well. You have very little extra time to play with before fatigue kicks in and the signallers on duty cannot continue. One reason I particularly dislike such rostering in any railway command and control function.

I wonder how many of the executive bean counters have worked shifts, nevermind 12 hour ones?
 

dk1

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So basically hundreds, if not thousands of passengers, have been massively inconvenienced by delayed and cancelled trains on the WCML because Network Rail had NOBODY available to man the work station in the Rugby ROC ?
Surely this contingency should be planned for ??
Not always possible. These things are rare but hey, they happen.
 

ag51ruk

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Why would the "brief" signalling issue supposedly only affect LNR ?

The issue didn't affect just LNWR - Virgin were also affected, and the departures board at Crewe showed a large number of delays last night to services from both operators.
 

flitwickbeds

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I don't like 12 hour shifts in any job at all, let alone a safety critical one. 8 hours is a "full working day" and is generally the period most people can maintain good attentiveness provided they get a decent break roughly in the middle.
Surely that's up to the company/teams/individuals to decide what works best for them?

I currently do 10 hour shifts which doesn't require night shifts, but in a previous job in the same building I did 12 hour shifts either day or night in a 3-on, 3-off pattern.

I could never stomach doing a 9-5.30, five day week. It also wouldn't work for my company. At the moment given my personal circumstances it would also be impossible for me.

If I were to do a 9-5.30, I would be out of my house from about 7.30am until about 7pm. That's 11 and a half hours 5 days a week I'm out the house - so 57.5 hours a week away from home, 110.5 at home.

With my 10 hour shifts I'm out the house for about 52 hours a week, in for 116.

Under a 12 hour shift routine the maths is more difficult because some weeks you do 4 shifts, some weeks 3 shifts. On the 3 shift weeks you'd be out the house for only 45 hours, and in for 123 hours. That's nearly a whole daytime extra compared to 5 days a week at 8 hours, giving your body much more rest and relaxation, before even getting into comparing how much less stressful life in general is (eg shopping on a Wednesday afternoon compared to any time on a weekend).
 
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