ValentaFan1974
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Do we know when the launch date is?
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West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia
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If you want to be really pedantic, the Clyde is tidal underneath the Glasgow Central approaches, making it part of the coastline. The Mersey at Runcorn may well be similar.Yuck!
I'd avoid all mention of coast, as the route only lives up to the name for a few hundred yards at Hest Bank.
CheshireCrusty
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Looks as if the CMA has thrown a spanner in the works.
The CMA Press Release is available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rail-merger-raises-competition-concerns
The CMA Press Release is available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rail-merger-raises-competition-concerns
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Presumably this relates to TransPennine Express, as I can't think of any other FirstGroup operation that competes with anything long distance on the WCML?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
They've even suggested a solution - as for EMR: price caps on the different flows.
They do like to flex their muscles to annoy other government departments.
To show their attention to detail, they've helpfully illustrated their press release with a GWR 800.
Clarence Yard
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It is indeed TPE that is at issue here.
This is standard CMA procedure. After a phase 1 enquiry, they identify the routes they are really interested in. The TOC/OG then has to offer undertakings, usually about fares, in order to satisfy the CMA.
Only if the undertakings don’t satisfy the CMA do they move to a stage 2 enquiry, which is not something that the rail industry/DfT usually allows.
This is largely an administrative procedure that all franchise winners have to go through.
This is standard CMA procedure. After a phase 1 enquiry, they identify the routes they are really interested in. The TOC/OG then has to offer undertakings, usually about fares, in order to satisfy the CMA.
Only if the undertakings don’t satisfy the CMA do they move to a stage 2 enquiry, which is not something that the rail industry/DfT usually allows.
This is largely an administrative procedure that all franchise winners have to go through.
d9009alycidon
Member
Not forgetting the short stretch at Mossband over the tidal River Esk
Indeed, no different than when they voiced concerns about Stagecoach in 2015 and in no way a spanner in the works.
And indeed at Preston and Lancaster where the Ribble and Lune respectively are both tidal.
krus_aragon
Established Member
21 routes between Preston and Scotland? They must be looking at an interesting map...
Seventeen between Preston & Scotland and four between Oxenholme and Carlisle according to the Evening Standard tonight.
Edinburgh/Glasgow to Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston is ten.
Lockerbie to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston is seven
Carlisle to Penrith and Oxenholme then Oxenholme to Penrith is three. I’m probably overthinking it but I can’t work out what the fourth is.
There are 10 stations:
- Glasgow
- Edinburgh
- Haymarket
- Motherwell
- Lockerbie
- Carlisle
- Penrith
- Oxenholme
- Lancaster
- Preston
Which results in the following number of possible journeys:
- 9 from Preston
- 9 from Lancaster
- 9 from Oxenholme
- 9 from Penrith
- 9 from Carlisle
- 9 from Lockerbie
- 7 from Motherwell
- 7 from Glasgow
- 8 from Haymarket
- 8 from Edinburgh
Even if you halve those numbers (because I'm counting out and return separately) that's 42.
Remove routes where there's other operators:
- Glasgow - Motherwell
- Haymarket - Edinburgh
- Carlisle - Lancaster
- Oxenholme - Preston
- Oxenholme - Lancaster
- Carlisle - Preston
By my reckoning, that leaves 30 possible routes/journeys.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
CheshireCrusty
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The CMA has today issued a further statement:
"The CMA has considered the undertakings offered and today announced that it considers that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the undertaking offered, or a modified version of it, might be accepted by the CMA to remedy the substantial lessening of competition identified by the CMA," it said.
The CMA now has until 21 January 2020 to decide whether to accept the undertaking, with the possibility to extend this time-frame to 17 March 2020 "if it considers there are special reasons for doing so".
This is presumably the removal of the "spanner" which could have prevented the transfer on the 7th December but I am unclear what would happened if by the 21st January or 17th March it remained unsatisfied with the undertakings.
I do hope the undertakings cover the availability and discounts provided by Advance Fares as well as the "walk up" tariffs (advance fares are particularly significant to the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes).
"The CMA has considered the undertakings offered and today announced that it considers that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the undertaking offered, or a modified version of it, might be accepted by the CMA to remedy the substantial lessening of competition identified by the CMA," it said.
The CMA now has until 21 January 2020 to decide whether to accept the undertaking, with the possibility to extend this time-frame to 17 March 2020 "if it considers there are special reasons for doing so".
This is presumably the removal of the "spanner" which could have prevented the transfer on the 7th December but I am unclear what would happened if by the 21st January or 17th March it remained unsatisfied with the undertakings.
I do hope the undertakings cover the availability and discounts provided by Advance Fares as well as the "walk up" tariffs (advance fares are particularly significant to the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes).
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CheshireCrusty
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Although not between Oxenholme and Carlisle, I would be surprised if there wasn't competition concern over Lancaster to Penrith
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is there much demand for that actual journey?
CheshireCrusty
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From my casual observations there are a reasonable number of journeys made between Penrith and Lancaster.
On one occasion I was on a VTWC train that did not stop at Penrith. In my coach there were 5 passengers (in 3 independent groups) who got on at Lancaster and then got very agitated when they discovered after leaving Lancaster that the train did not stop at Penrith (the TM had to sort them out - I think they went to Carlisle and back again)
As I understand, as long as it is non-zero, the commission may raise a competition concern and seek remedial action. I doubt that an insignificant traffic flow would be blocker.
I have no idea what the process would be if the CMA refused the allocation of the Franchise (or even if they legally could) given that Virgin were excluded! Another extension? But what about WCP? Mind, if HS2 is cancelled or significantly modified presumably the WCP is also in question!
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CheshireCrusty
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As I understand it the CMA could halt the transfer going ahead on the 7th December if they did have serious competition concerns. This would halt the VTWC franchise transfer until the CMA had concluded a formal Stage 2 investigation and issued their conclusions (normally during the investigation process a solution is reached e.g., by the sale of some parts of the business to another company or the proposed merger/take-over is abandoned by the parties). If this had happened here, DfT would then have to decide how to retain the service pro temp and it would be likely that Virgin/Stagecoach would have been asked to run the service, presumably by contract extension, until that process was complete.
However today's announcement by the CMA is that they believe that the undertakings offered are likely (possibly with some modifications) to meet their concerns. The CMA are therefore saying that the transfer can go ahead on the 7th December.
Rail Ranger
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The Virgin West Coast franchise has had many plus points including the availability of some very attractive fares (particularly earlier in the franchise). However there are two areas where I hope that First Trenitalia might be an improvement:
1. Virgin run the franchise like an airline with all that entails. It is a train service please.
2. Virgin have a misguided policy of never holding connections at stations they control. This is a mistake in my view and should be looked at by the new operator.
1. Virgin run the franchise like an airline with all that entails. It is a train service please.
2. Virgin have a misguided policy of never holding connections at stations they control. This is a mistake in my view and should be looked at by the new operator.
BucksBones
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I'm not exactly sure what that does entail....?
Rail Ranger
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Encouraging everyone to book in advance, wanting to make all their trains reservation only, not promoting Off-Peak Return fares, branding "their" ticket offices as if they only sell Virgin tickets (like an airline would at an airport).
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Well if First Trenitalia are to offer Airline type foods to First & Standard class passengers then even more of the same.
Is this connection to WC trains or other TOCs as well, because do you realise the delay costs that can be involved by delaying train departures, not great for passengers we know.
What TOCs do hold connections nowadays. Not many unless they really have to, like with Virgin at Crewe for passengers for Boat sailings from Holyhead.
transmanche
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