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Why did TPE order Class 397 ('Nova 2') instead of more 80x series trains?

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Energy

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Eh? This makes no sense at all.
Agreed, if a unit fails they just take the passengers of and put them on another service, not much point taking a unit from another service as that service still needs another unit. West Coast don't keep spare trains around...
 
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tpjm

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wasn’t the delivery timescale the decider for these as well? Hitachi were honest and said they couldn’t to the order went to CAF. Now they can’t I wonder if they are wishing they had gone for the safe option with the later delivery.

Mentioned this already... Hitachi wouldn’t be able to deliver any more Class 80x than the 19 TPE have already ordered for a considerable time into the future...

Thank you all, interesting stuff. I do like the look of the CAF trains, they look rather smart. I wonder if their acceleration performance can match an 802 though

The Class 397s are very impressive.

I think it was a poor decision that will cause us some problems in the longer term (e.g. the 397s could be the 180s of the 2030s - a small fleet that are too short for long distance high speed services but the 125mph specification means that they aren't suitable for cascading to slower services where their length would otherwise be more appropriate).

I take the point about ordering lots of different types of trains meaning they might get them sooner (in theory), but remember that TPE didn't need to order new trains for a specific date - they aren't running a legacy fleet like Northern (who needed the 195s in time to replace the Pacers/153s before the accessibility requirements kicked in). So it didn't matter so much to TPE that they had new trains so urgently - additional capacity is clearly needed (I have friends who commute from Sheffield to Manchester and colleagues who commute from Manchester/ Stockport to Sheffield, so I regularly hear the stories about three coach 185s...) but TPE weren't in anything like as desperate a position as Northern were - if it took until 2020 for the fleet to be delivered then they'd just carry on with modern accessible 185/350s on services in the meantime.
Class 397 could be lengthened in the future. There’s also talk of some other operators placing an order. My opinion? It’s such a good unit that there won’t be 12 of them for long!

TPE are desperate for additional stock as the current fleet of Cl185/350 is woefully inadequate for the passenger loadings. As mentioned above, waiting an additional year or two for additional Hitachi units was not an option. At the end of the day, you have to remember that this is a business with a limited length of franchise... First have to make some money to make the entire thing worthwhile!
 

S-Bahn

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Whilst I would normally say standardising on one type of train is the way to go, in this instance I can see the case for the 397, as the Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland route should be thought of as entirely separate to the issue of the Transpennine Routes that the 802 and Diesel Mk5's are going to do.

I'm just a bit surprised TPE chose a 5 car train. Why not future proof with a longer train?
 

JonathanH

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I'm just a bit surprised TPE chose a 5 car train. Why not future proof with a longer train?

A longer train costs more to lease - you would imagine that having done the sums, a five coach train fitted the projected loadings for the period of the franchise. Remember that the TPE trains come at the back of the 'flights' of passenger trains on the Northern WCML.
 

nigelsporne

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I will probably have missed the answer to this so apologies. Why is TPE using 397s on the West Coast and 802s on the East and not using the same for both? Surely operationally this would be simpler.
 

59CosG95

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I will probably have missed the answer to this so apologies. Why is TPE using 397s on the West Coast and 802s on the East and not using the same for both? Surely operationally this would be simpler.
802s are required for the East Coast runs as there are currently no wires between Manchester Victoria & Leeds, or between Neville Hill (east of Leeds) and Colton Junction (SW of York).
Plans are afoot to electrify Leeds - Huddersfield, but not Leeds - York.

397s were ordered as CAF gave a shorter lead time for introduction than Hitachi...which hasn't really happened. Plus, the routes the 397s will operate on (Liverpool/Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Carlisle) are all already electrified.
 

yorkie

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I will probably have missed the answer to this so apologies. Why is TPE using 397s on the West Coast and 802s on the East and not using the same for both? Surely operationally this would be simpler.
This was posted in the wrong thread, so I have moved it here, but see previous posts in this thread :)
 

Mikey C

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Mentioned this already... Hitachi wouldn’t be able to deliver any more Class 80x than the 19 TPE have already ordered for a considerable time into the future...



The Class 397s are very impressive.


Class 397 could be lengthened in the future. There’s also talk of some other operators placing an order. My opinion? It’s such a good unit that there won’t be 12 of them for long!

TPE are desperate for additional stock as the current fleet of Cl185/350 is woefully inadequate for the passenger loadings. As mentioned above, waiting an additional year or two for additional Hitachi units was not an option. At the end of the day, you have to remember that this is a business with a limited length of franchise... First have to make some money to make the entire thing worthwhile!

I imagine CAF would have hoped First would also order them for the East Coast open access operator, instead of an 80x derivative
 

nigelsporne

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I accept what you say but surely to have two small classes will create headaches over spares etc, when a bi-modal unit would give flexibility with diversion routes.
 

JonathanH

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I accept what you say but surely to have two small classes will create headaches over spares etc, when a bi-modal unit would give flexibility with diversion routes.

It is worth noting that the two fleets are not being maintained by the same companies so the need to have two sets of spares isn't really an issue.
 

tbtc

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Class 397 could be lengthened in the future. There’s also talk of some other operators placing an order. My opinion? It’s such a good unit that there won’t be 12 of them for long!

I wouldn't be surprised if they have an extra coach or two built for them, or maybe an extra couple of units built to beef up the Liverpool service, but where else (beyond TPE's WCML service) is there going to be demand for a pure-electric five coach 125mph train?

Most services that are important enough to require 125mph running will need more than five coaches.

XC and EMR can't take pure-electrics (and EMR are ordering something from Hitachi)

LNER and GWR will want something compatible with what they have (Hitachi), and will probably want something bi-mode, given the unelectrified extremes of their networks - why order a tiny non-standard fleet that doesn't offer anything that the 800/801/802s already provide?

HT are ordering Hitachi (what with Hull not having any electricity)

Other TOCs who have EMUs won't find it worth paying the premium for 125mph stock (the space taken up by "crumple zones", the lack of corridor connections)

There might be twelve more 397 *coaches* ordered but I think they'll stay a pretty tiny fleet (which makes long term future a bit uncertain - given that HS2 may well see a lot of 390s freed up to run the routes that the 397s do).
 

swt_passenger

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Whilst I would normally say standardising on one type of train is the way to go, in this instance I can see the case for the 397, as the Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland route should be thought of as entirely separate to the issue of the Transpennine Routes that the 802 and Diesel Mk5's are going to do.

I'm just a bit surprised TPE chose a 5 car train. Why not future proof with a longer train?
This is quite a significantly longer train anyway, 130m replacing 80m, in broad terms. I think it could have been worse...
 

Brissle Girl

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If I recall correctly, they are only looking outside of IEP because the ludicrous rules force them to, if they require more IEPs then they should be able to simply go back to the original supplier and order some more of the same, job sorted and no idiotic delays or having to manage a different type to what they presently have
Remember LNER is a publicly owned company. It would be a very slippery slope if governments could let multimillion pound contracts without going through a competitive tender process, and would be a very retrograde step. Besides, even if you think you know where a contract is going to end up, it's good practice to go through a tender process, to ensure that the ultimate supplier's pencil has been sharpened in coming up with a bid price, just in case they get underbid.
 

Brissle Girl

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This is quite a significantly longer train anyway, 130m replacing 80m, in broad terms. I think it could have been worse...
Indeed, to go from 3 car to 4 car to 5 car in, what, around 10 years, is a capacity improvement that many other secondary long distance routes can only dream of.
 

Jamesrob637

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6 years, no? 350s started end of '13, and 397s end of '19. But previous 8-car workings no longer exist (not that they've existed for a while).
 

tpjm

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I wouldn't be surprised if they have an extra coach or two built for them, or maybe an extra couple of units built to beef up the Liverpool service, but where else (beyond TPE's WCML service) is there going to be demand for a pure-electric five coach 125mph train?
Rumour has is that Virgin were looking at it for their open access operator...
 

tbtc

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Indeed, to go from 3 car to 4 car to 5 car in, what, around 10 years, is a capacity improvement that many other secondary long distance routes can only dream of.

...and increased from bi-hourly to hourly too - it was only every two hours when TPE took over from Virgin (so the number of carriages per hour has increased a fair bit) - phenomenal growth - but let's see whether the competition comes down a bit when both operators north of Oxenholme are operated by First and some of the fare competition is... erm... dampened down somewhat to maximise revenue...

Rumour has is that Virgin were looking at it for their open access operator...

Let's see what does get ordered - it won't be a big order even if Virgin do get the paths and choose CAF.
 

gimmea50anyday

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2013-2014 they were built and were introduced in time for the commonwealth games. TPE used LM 350/3 in multiple with 350/4 as additional capacity before LM started using them as they were built around the same time.
 

transmanche

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Indeed, to go from 3 car to 4 car to 5 car in, what, around 10 years, is a capacity improvement that many other secondary long distance routes can only dream of.
Athough 3x23m/182 seats (185) to 4x20m/196 seats (350) is not a huge capacity improvement - albeit very welcome.

It's only with the introduction of the 5x23m/296 seats Nova 2 units that you're getting a significant increase in capacity.
 

a_c_skinner

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Mentioned this already... Hitachi wouldn’t be able to deliver any more Class 80x than the 19 TPE have already ordered for a considerable time into the future...

Sorry to come back after delay, but is this correct? The mutterings in the trainspotting press, IIRC, is that Newton Aycliffe is about to run out of work. Of course at the time they were hoping for the Tyne & Wear Metro order...
 

Mikey C

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Sorry to come back after delay, but is this correct? The mutterings in the trainspotting press, IIRC, is that Newton Aycliffe is about to run out of work. Of course at the time they were hoping for the Tyne & Wear Metro order...

The orders for the follow ups top the original IETs were rather badly phased for the factory, having the GWR 802s were made in Italy due to capacity issues was a bit regrettable really. When will the MML versions go into production?
 

a_c_skinner

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This is the problem (one of) with franchising, trains needed in big batches in short order where a sensible system would settle on versatile designs that could be produced steadily over a long period.
 

Mikey C

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This is the problem (one of) with franchising, trains needed in big batches in short order where a sensible system would settle on versatile designs that could be produced steadily over a long period.

Isn't it also a by product of specific legislation producing a mass or orders to meet a particular deadline, e.g. the PRM deadline instead of having a longer term plan and allowing a phased introduction across the country.
 

a_c_skinner

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Perhaps, though I'd argue that getting so close to the PRM deadline is simply the other side of the coin with letting of franchises, namely that a lot of procurement was delayed as franchises were let closer to the deadline.
 

Energy

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It certainly doesn't help that Hitachi don't seem to have a diesel version of the class 385 / at200 as I think that could give them some orders as right now CAF are getting all new diesels apart from a few stadlers.

I don't think the UK can support many new factories here unless they export trains to other countries, AT300s are a burst of popularity and now lots of demand is gone with not much left, only XC, Chiltern and possibly ScotRail although Stadler is looking at XC and Chiltern.

The burst of at300s has been shown with TPE not getting enough meanwhile in a few years Newton Aycliffe will be looking a bit empty
 
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