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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

krus_aragon

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If this FB report is true, then it seems to me an appalling waste of resources.
Another LHCS set to be used to make one return journey per day on the Cardiff-Holyhead corridor, and then have a nice long rest in Cardiff.
Is there any evidence of a need for this extra service?
It's a stepping stone toward the intended provision of six north-south journeys with two rakes. My interpretation of this situation is that the Mk4s can't go on Holyhead-Cardiff yet (not cleared / not ready / whatever), and TfW apparently only have one Mk3 First/Buffet carriage available for use.

If they had two Mk3 buffets, they could operate all six planned north-south loco-hauled services with two rates (three journeys per rake). But with only one buffet, that rake can't operate three journeys per day while also serving the two journeys that the Mk3 buffet is currently used on (south in the morning, north in the evening). So they've chosen to under-utilise the Mk3 rakes for the time being and maintain the current (on-board) first class that customers are used to.

The fact that a Mk4 rake is taking the place of the current Mk3 Manchester rake means there's still a net increase of available stock, as the Manchester service was due to go back to being operated by DMUs. And depending on how cunning TfW are in their diagramming, the units that have to operate the mid-day services that should have been loco-hauled can be doubling up and adding capacity to other services inthe morning and evening peak.
 
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tomwills98

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It's a stepping stone toward the intended provision of six north-south journeys with two rakes. My interpretation of this situation is that the Mk4s can't go on Holyhead-Cardiff yet (not cleared / not ready / whatever), and TfW apparently only have one Mk3 First/Buffet carriage available for use.

If they had two Mk3 buffets, they could operate all six planned north-south loco-hauled services with two rates (three journeys per rake). But with only one buffet, that rake can't operate three journeys per day while also serving the two journeys that the Mk3 buffet is currently used on (south in the morning, north in the evening). So they've chosen to under-utilise the Mk3 rakes for the time being and maintain the current (on-board) first class that customers are used to.

I always thought that there was a "spare" Mk3 buffet and they rotate them every now and then. There's been one sat in Canton for a while but the WAG has carried on as normal
 

krus_aragon

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I always thought that there was a "spare" Mk3 buffet and they rotate them every now and then. There's been one sat in Canton for a while but the WAG has carried on as normal
That was my thought too. But for whatever reason, TfW have decided not to press that spare into service on the second North-South rake (which would let them cover all six journeys) and go with the announced compromise instead.
 

hexagon789

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I always thought that there was a "spare" Mk3 buffet and they rotate them every now and then. There's been one sat in Canton for a while but the WAG has carried on as normal

They do, but they have different numbers of seats and they appear to have taken to using the one with more seats (23 against 18).
 

Rhydgaled

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I do think a two-hourly or hourly Takt of north-south Mk4 LHCS IC services on the same stopping pattern would be better than this "crack express". No reason one of those couldn't be named and have the restaurant service with others just having a buffet counter. GWR work just fine that way.
What is the acceleration of a 125mph-geared 67 on 4-5 mark 4 coaches plus a DVT like compared to a class 175 or 158? There are a fair few stops on some of the non-LHCS workings which might be difficult to manage with the LHCS (and can the 67s handle frequent stops? I seem to recall reading that other locos (37s on Cumbrian coast and 50s on Waterloo-Exeter) struggled with reliability when asked to do too much stop-start stuff). Also is the demand there for a 4/5 coach train every 2 hours all day on Holyhead-Cardiff or would that capacity be better used on other routes? The ideal I think would be a 'Takt' that doesn't include Holyhead-Cardiff at all (eg. hourly Liverpool-Cardiff and Manchester-Swansea down the marches), with just 3 expresses per day Holyhead-Cardiff overlaid on top over and above the standard pattern, but I'm not sure it's possible to make it all fit.

Some staff have been trained, with more to come.
Trained on mark 3s and 67s I presume, since there are no mark 4s with TfW yet as far as I know. How long would the conversion course to mark 4s be?
 

hexagon789

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What is the acceleration of a 125mph-geared 67 on 4-5 mark 4 coaches plus a DVT like compared to a class 175 or 158?

They could keep time with the 168s on Chiltern as far as I'm aware, and 5 Mk3s+DVT is approximately equal to 4 Mk4s+DVT in weight. The only issue I see is any differential speeds, they had dispensation to run at 100 on the Chiltern Mainline but I'm not sure if they can do even 90 on the North Wales Coast (I think it's 75 but 90 HST or SP, forget which).
 

sw1ller

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They’re quicker than a 175 to 90mph with 3 mk3s and a DVT. I know this as on my last route refresh I just happened to catch the stock up the coast..... where it hit 90 much quicker than the 175’s. I can’t comment on the breaking performance as the driver I had is notoriously careful when coming into stations. But breaking is where a lot of the time is made or lost.
 

craigybagel

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Trained on mark 3s and 67s I presume, since there are no mark 4s with TfW yet as far as I know. How long would the conversion course to mark 4s be?

Yes, nobody has been trained on MKIVs yet. Trainer training will be taking place shortly, ready for them to then train everyone else who needs it, but I'm not sure how long that is going to take. At the moment LHCS training is 2 days for guards and 3 weeks for drivers IIRC.

They could keep time with the 168s on Chiltern as far as I'm aware, and 5 Mk3s+DVT is approximately equal to 4 Mk4s+DVT in weight. The only issue I see is any differential speeds, they had dispensation to run at 100 on the Chiltern Mainline but I'm not sure if they can do even 90 on the North Wales Coast (I think it's 75 but 90 HST or SP, forget which).

I recall reading in a magazine Chiltern claimed that a 67 + 6 MKIIIs could match 170 timings, so I don't see how with 4 or even 5 MKIVs TfW should have any issues - other then the increased dwell times with the slam door MKIIIs.

I don't believe there are many if any differential speeds on the Coast. There are on the Marches however but TfW have dispensation to run at SP speeds with the 67s at present.

What is the acceleration of a 125mph-geared 67 on 4-5 mark 4 coaches plus a DVT like compared to a class 175 or 158? There are a fair few stops on some of the non-LHCS workings which might be difficult to manage with the LHCS (and can the 67s handle frequent stops?

They’re quicker than a 175 to 90mph with 3 mk3s and a DVT. I know this as on my last route refresh I just happened to catch the stock up the coast..... where it hit 90 much quicker than the 175’s. I can’t comment on the breaking performance as the driver I had is notoriously careful when coming into stations. But breaking is where a lot of the time is made or lost.

As I said earlier,I see no reason why they should struggle to match 175 timings. And like my colleague sw1ller I too have recently spent time in the cab on the LHCS services and they definitely out accelerate a 175 up to 90mph.
 

hexagon789

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I recall reading in a magazine Chiltern claimed that a 67 + 6 MKIIIs could match 170 timings, so I don't see how with 4 or even 5 MKIVs TfW should have any issues - other then the increased dwell times with the slam door MKIIIs.

I don't believe there are many if any differential speeds on the Coast. There are on the Marches however but TfW have dispensation to run at SP speeds with the 67s at present.

So they can do 90 on the North Coast then, that's good. Should be a worthwhile choice then with no time penalties other than possibly dwells.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Yes, nobody has been trained on MKIVs yet. Trainer training will be taking place shortly, ready for them to then train everyone else who needs it, but I'm not sure how long that is going to take. At the moment LHCS training is 2 days for guards and 3 weeks for drivers IIRC.

Will the drivers actually have to train on Mark 4s considering it's still 67s? Maybe some training to do with the required mods? I've never given any thought to if they have to be trained on the consist, I assume new stop boards will be needed if there is a change in length?
 

krus_aragon

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Will the drivers actually have to train on Mark 4s considering it's still 67s? Maybe some training to do with the required mods? I've never given any thought to if they have to be trained on the consist, I assume new stop boards will be needed if there is a change in length?
If they're going to drive both ways, they'll be using the Mark 4 DVT instead of the existing Mark 3. I expect they'll also need to be trained to a certain level on the coaches in between the two (power supply, basic fault finding, circuit breakers, etc).
 

craigybagel

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There are a few differences between MKIII and MKIV DVTs that the drivers will require a degree of training on. Also, the fact these trains will have interlock (unlike MKIIIs) is a fairly big change.

There has also been quite of a bit training for crews on LHCS from scratch of late. In the new timetable Cardiff guards will be working some services, which they haven't done for several years - so a new small link has been created at Cardiff Mainline who will be doing this work. Also, both Cardiff and Crewe have recently had drivers move into the respective locomotive links at those depots for whom training is ongoing.
 

driver_m

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Yes, they’ll need full training because you’ll need to know how to isolate brakes for example, knock a coach out if it has a serious fault maybe, and the DVT will have its differences. I remember mk2 and mk3 coaches having a very different technique when having to do anything on them, so a mk3 to mk4 should be a bit of difference.

As has been said about the speed differentials. It shouldn’t make any difference at all, if the trains stop at Flint/Prestatyn where they are at present.
 

Rhydgaled

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They could keep time with the 168s on Chiltern as far as I'm aware, and 5 Mk3s+DVT is approximately equal to 4 Mk4s+DVT in weight. The only issue I see is any differential speeds, they had dispensation to run at 100 on the Chiltern Mainline but I'm not sure if they can do even 90 on the North Wales Coast (I think it's 75 but 90 HST or SP, forget which).

They’re quicker than a 175 to 90mph with 3 mk3s and a DVT. I know this as on my last route refresh I just happened to catch the stock up the coast..... where it hit 90 much quicker than the 175’s. I can’t comment on the breaking performance as the driver I had is notoriously careful when coming into stations. But breaking is where a lot of the time is made or lost.

Yes, nobody has been trained on MKIVs yet. Trainer training will be taking place shortly, ready for them to then train everyone else who needs it, but I'm not sure how long that is going to take. At the moment LHCS training is 2 days for guards and 3 weeks for drivers IIRC.

I recall reading in a magazine Chiltern claimed that a 67 + 6 MKIIIs could match 170 timings, so I don't see how with 4 or even 5 MKIVs TfW should have any issues - other then the increased dwell times with the slam door MKIIIs.

I don't believe there are many if any differential speeds on the Coast. There are on the Marches however but TfW have dispensation to run at SP speeds with the 67s at present.
Thanks for all the answers. It's good to know that the mark 4s should keep time at least as well as the present 158s/175s on any of TfW's long-distance routes.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Thanks for all the answers. It's good to know that the mark 4s should keep time at least as well as the present 158s/175s on any of TfW's long-distance routes.

Dwell times will make a difference.
The Manchester LHCS is noticeably slower overall than the DMUs it replaced, by at least 5 minutes.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks for all the answers. It's good to know that the mark 4s should keep time at least as well as the present 158s/175s on any of TfW's long-distance routes.

They'll be at the worst equal to Mk3 performance.

But the Mark IV rake will presumably be dwelling less than the Mark III rake as it has automatic doors?

The dwells could be less, but they might not reduce them depending how they decide
 

Stew27005

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Don't know if the first set is finished. Only the DVT was visible poking out the depot. I'll wander down tomorrow and see if any stock has moved
 

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