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Northern Rail refusal to compensate on multi-modal tickets
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Bantamzen
Established Member
I'm considering taking Northern to a small claims court under the Consumer Rights Act 2016.
Current situation is joke. Every train is delayed, most over 5 minutes - I cannot remember the last time one ran on time. Three of the trains I get in the last week have been cancelled.
No one's really tested it yet in the courts. It's only a matter of time before there is a landmark case now the CRA 2016 includes train delays.
Current situation is joke. Every train is delayed, most over 5 minutes - I cannot remember the last time one ran on time. Three of the trains I get in the last week have been cancelled.
No one's really tested it yet in the courts. It's only a matter of time before there is a landmark case now the CRA 2016 includes train delays.
ForTheLoveOf
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How much are they delayed by on average?
Are the delays within the control of the rail industry?
ASharpe
Member
So I've had a response from Transport Focus about a delay on a journey using an M-Card and Northern are going to send me a complimentary ticket.
The gist of the reasoning is that I was stuck on the train for 30 minutes and that caused my delay. (The delay was caused by the driver accepting a wrong route, fortunately he stopped just before the wires ended.) I think this is based on a literal reading of Northern's passenger charter.
The gist of the reasoning is that I was stuck on the train for 30 minutes and that caused my delay. (The delay was caused by the driver accepting a wrong route, fortunately he stopped just before the wires ended.) I think this is based on a literal reading of Northern's passenger charter.
Northern are making untrue statements to customers, when refusing to pay the customers the monies they are due.
https://www.wymetro.com/corporate/n...-urged-to-claim-timetable-chaos-compensation/
But of course this behaviour is to be expected of a company of Northern's reputation.
It'll be interesting to see the outcome when the first cases start reaching the Ombudsman....
The only reference to delay compensation I could find on the Metro website stated customers are entitled to compensation:
https://www.wymetro.com/corporate/n...-urged-to-claim-timetable-chaos-compensation/
But of course this behaviour is to be expected of a company of Northern's reputation.
It'll be interesting to see the outcome when the first cases start reaching the Ombudsman....
Bantamzen
Established Member
Just to add to the above comments, it is not just Northern that say MCards are not part of Delay Repay, WY Metro also include this in their FAQs:
https://www.m-card.co.uk/faqs/
No I'm not saying this is legal or otherwise, but it is worth remembering that MCards are a Metro / West Yorkshire Combined Authority product that is accepted under these T&Cs by Northern. It has previously been suggested that Northern may sometimes pay a Delay Repay claim, but its by no means certain that they would. Personally I have never tried, although for me delays that would even fall under the terms a rare so its not something I've had to consider.
How any court case would see the current situation I have no idea, and honestly I wouldn't want to be the one trying it out.
Edit: I don't know if this further complicates this matter, but MCards covering zones 1-5 or any combination therein are fully transferrable between users, plus there are very few stations that even read the data at the barriers, so many journeys made with them cannot be verified.
https://www.m-card.co.uk/faqs/
No I'm not saying this is legal or otherwise, but it is worth remembering that MCards are a Metro / West Yorkshire Combined Authority product that is accepted under these T&Cs by Northern. It has previously been suggested that Northern may sometimes pay a Delay Repay claim, but its by no means certain that they would. Personally I have never tried, although for me delays that would even fall under the terms a rare so its not something I've had to consider.
How any court case would see the current situation I have no idea, and honestly I wouldn't want to be the one trying it out.
Edit: I don't know if this further complicates this matter, but MCards covering zones 1-5 or any combination therein are fully transferrable between users, plus there are very few stations that even read the data at the barriers, so many journeys made with them cannot be verified.
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WY Metro makes the blatantly obviously incorrect sweeping statement "The Delay Repay scheme applies to rail operator only tickets", which we know to be a completely untrue statement as Delay Repay applies to all ticket types (see my opening post).
I doubt they came up with this themselves. I wonder if Northern told them to say it?
Just to be clear: Northern are acting in a manner that is illegal. Of that there can be no doubt.
Irrelevant; they cannot just make up whatever T&Cs they want to and expect these to be binding.
That is the entire premise of this thread: that they are refusing to, and that it is incorrect for them to refuse to.
This is irrelevant, as it applies to all ticket types and to a large proportion of journeys on most operators all over Great Britain.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Unlikely, I've been using Metrocards for a very long time and never known the T&C's to match those of operator seasons.
You will forgive me but unless there is clear evidence of this, I will remain unconvinced. I seriously doubt that the WYCA and the operators would have overlooked this when negotiating acceptance of Metro products.
See my previous response.
Well that is the opinion of some here on this forum, but again I am not convinced. Personally I would not be seeking to make Delay Repay claims based on these T&C's, let alone challenge them legally. What others do is up to them, but I would always suggest think carefully before considering legal action.
Well again, this is not what WYCA's T&C's say. Sorry Yorkie I know what your position is, but I don't agree. And if I am wrong, I would be fascinated as to how the WYCA and the TOCs could validate claims given that these tickets are basically untrackable on the rail network and transferrable. For example could someone work from home, give their MCard to a friend who uses it purely for bus travel, but then still claim for delays? Maybe this is why these T&C's exist, to stop a very wide loophole being exploited and forcing prices vastly upwards?
@Bantamzen if you refuse to accept what Jo Johnson has said, that's your prerogative, but people can see the facts for themselves.
It's got no relevance here whatsoever.
Delay Repay fraud can occur regardless of ticket type. Delay Repay applies to all tickets.
If you wish to create a thread to discuss fraudulent Delay Repay claims and your fear that such claims will make prices rise, please feel free to do so.
It's got no relevance here whatsoever.
Delay Repay fraud can occur regardless of ticket type. Delay Repay applies to all tickets.
Bantamzen
Established Member
It is indeed my prerogative, I tend to take what politicians say with salt. So until there is definitive requirement for TOCs to pay Delay Repay for journeys made using MCards I will remain cynical.
What about West Yorkshire Day Rangers?
And the South Yorkshire connect +. I’ve had XC pay out on a SY Connect + without even questioning it. I was delayed by an hour and they paid me 50% of the value of the ticket in RTV within 2 weeks. If they were not obligated to do this or didn’t think they were they would have rejected it.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I honestly don't know, I've never used one having always been a Metrocard holder.
ASharpe
Member
Just to cloudy the waters further it should be noted that since this thread started the Northern Passenger charter is no more. The new and improved Passenger Promise now reads:
Helpfully they even include the contact details of multimodal ticket companies.
Helpfully they even include the contact details of multimodal ticket companies.
ForTheLoveOf
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Rather amusing how they tried to make this legitimate by including that. That's just not how it works, though - the NRCoT sets out that all tickets entitle the passenger to compensation, so Northern's Passenger Promise can't change that right.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Especially if you are on a train which gets delayed between stations due to signalling problems. It's a little bit hard to "catch a bus" in that situation as they suggested I could have done one early evening.
They are trying to be cheap to save a few pounds
They are trying to be cheap to save a few pounds
Sounds like they are suggesting you self-detrain between stations if it happens again and, as the Delay Repay threshold is now 15 mins, they obviously don't want you to wait for very long before climbing down onto the track
Kite159
Veteran Member
Sounds like they are suggesting you self-detrain between stations if it happens again and, as the Delay Repay threshold is now 15 mins, they obviously don't want you to wait for very long before climbing down onto the track
Then attempt to find a bus stop with a bus heading roughly in the same direction you want to go (before you catch the wrong bus which goes all round the houses before reaching the place you wanted to go)
I'm just about to try and make a claim on a Bus and Train Day Rover. I was delayed by more than an hour last night. If I'd changed to a bus in Leeds I would not have been able to get all the way home. As it was, instead of arriving in Keighley in time with over half an hour to get my last bus, I remained on the train to Steeton and just caught the a bus on its way back towards Keighley.
Given the current state of transport information it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Most weeks I tweet to Metro about incorrect information on bus timetables. The current longest outstanding I know of is in Keighley bus station and has been wrong since September (and being upgraded to an urgent report just before Christmas according to the twitter team).
thealexweb
Member
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This week I started commuting Lostock to Eccles on a TfGM County Card. To be fair to Northern it is a very tight, albeit recognised by all journey planners, connection at Manchester Oxford Road of just eight minutes so I am very prone to even the slightest delay. I just submitted six delay repay requests through the Northern Delay Repay dashboard. Here's hoping.
You will get instantly rejected for them. Instead, email the complaints department, stating you'd like to claim under the Consumer Rights Act. If Northern are at fault, they will compensate you with free return tickets. If it's something like congestion they won't compensate you, but a train fault (of Northern's) they will. Although it is a very lengthy process and took me three months from start to finish for them to investigate some of the reasoning behind a train being late from a depot...
northernchris
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Northern have provided free tickets when travelling on an MCard if the train has become delayed during the journey too. I've successfully claimed twice now, once was a points failure and the other overhead wire problems
You've had better luck than me then!
northernchris
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To be fair to Northern, both times they sent out the vouchers without any arguments or questions. Maybe I just have been really lucky with their Customer Services!
thealexweb
Member
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As you said they were all been declined. As you suggested I have submitted Consumer Rights Act claims.
As I commute on up to four Northern services a day these are stacking up a lot faster than they are being processed...
It is a very lengthy process though, especially if the delay code is 'Due to a problem at the depot' - you'll be waiting a good three months!
gray1404
Established Member
What is the currently delay repay claim processing time for Northern when the claim involves a normal single or return ticket?
Is it possible to claim delay repay from Northern in the form of a free journey pass, if you made your delayed journey using one of their free journey passes?
Is it possible to claim delay repay from Northern in the form of a free journey pass, if you made your delayed journey using one of their free journey passes?
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