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Azuma train doors: Closed two minutes before departure, why?

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Mountain Man

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All that is totally wrong and very customer unfriendly.

By all means start the process 2 minutes before WTT departure, but as far as the passenger is concerned boarding should be allowed virtually up to the second the PUBLIC timetable says the train departs. The passenger can then have no complaint when the doors close and actual departure is up to 2 minutes later than he thought.
I 100% disagree.

This benefits customers by avoiding delays. 2 mins before on the board is sensible as it works out as far less by the time the passenger reaches the train
 
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yorkie

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A few weeks ago I was walking up the platform at Marylebone towards the extreme end of the platform; requiring the front train only, with other trains occupying the platform nearer the buffers. Two minutes prior to departure the screens on the platform went blank. I continued walking as I know what's going on and how train companies behave.

But people behind me got confused and thought the platform may have changed and went back towards the gateline and consulted staff. They then went back up the platform, and only just made it.

Overall Chiltern are a good company but there is (or was) someone who makes these sorts of anti-passenger decisions who also engages in witch-hunts against frontline staff who have the best interests of passengers at heart. If they were a bit more intelligent and spent more time thinking and actually experiencing the real world and less time acting against their customers and staff, they would not hide the details from all screens two whole minutes prior to departure!

Is this similar to what LNER are now doing, or do LNER have better safeguards in place?
 

Bantamzen

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I 100% disagree.

This benefits customers by avoiding delays. 2 mins before on the board is sensible as it works out as far less by the time the passenger reaches the train

I don't use Kings Cross very much, but when I did a couple of weeks ago my service departed from P0 and I was booked on the very front car of a 2*5 Azuma set. And that's a fair old hike from the main concourse, so like you I tend to think the 2 minutes before boarding policy is fairly sensible. Its either that or have people charging up the platform with seconds to go.
 

Mountain Man

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I don't use Kings Cross very much, but when I did a couple of weeks ago my service departed from P0 and I was booked on the very front car of a 2*5 Azuma set. And that's a fair old hike from the main concourse, so like you I tend to think the 2 minutes before boarding policy is fairly sensible. Its either that or have people charging up the platform with seconds to go.
Your final point is a key one. Safety needs to considered. The London termini are dangerous enough as it is with the volume of people without encouraging people to charge down the platform at the last moment
 

TRAX

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Removing the departure two minutes early from the screens also prevents passengers running in the station and falling, then filing a complaint to the operator because it’s of course the station’s fault if the passenger fell.
 

Mountain Man

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A few weeks ago I was walking up the platform at Marylebone towards the extreme end of the platform; requiring the front train only, with other trains occupying the platform nearer the buffers. Two minutes prior to departure the screens on the platform went blank. I continued walking as I know what's going on and how train companies behave.

But people behind me got confused and thought the platform may have changed and went back towards the gateline and consulted staff. They then went back up the platform, and only just made it.

Overall Chiltern are a good company but there is (or was) someone who makes these sorts of anti-passenger decisions who also engages in witch-hunts against frontline staff who have the best interests of passengers at heart. If they were a bit more intelligent and spent more time thinking and actually experiencing the real world and less time acting against their customers and staff, they would not hide the details from all screens two whole minutes prior to departure!

Is this similar to what LNER are now doing, or do LNER have better safeguards in place?
How often would that realistically happen vs the benefits of safe on time departures?

This is a good idea for passengers.
 

Mountain Man

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Removing the departure two minutes early from the screens also prevents passengers running in the station and falling, then filing a complaint to the operator.
Precisely.

And let's be clear, this is 2 minutes.

No one is advocating airport style times, just 2 minutes.
 

Ethano92

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Your final point is a key one. Safety needs to considered. The London termini are dangerous enough as it is with the volume of people without encouraging people to charge down the platform at the last moment

But then I'd argue people run when they see the screens go blank as they think the train is leaving earlier when they in fact have a full 2 minutes. Also not helpful when the screens on the platform itself go blank which I've seen at waterloo at least because those who are unfamiliar can't check they're boarding the right train even if they saw it displayed on the concourse.

Anyway, I'd say we should do away with whistles until say, up to 10 seconds before departure if we are truly worried about unnecessary injuries. I've gotten to platforms with 2 minutes spare, not purposely of course, that's still quite some time when you're already on the platform though. I don't see how hurrying people up way to far in advance is particularly safe. Especially when the train does end up closing its doors quite some time after I board.
 

Bantamzen

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But then I'd argue people run when they see the screens go blank as they think the train is leaving earlier when they in fact have a full 2 minutes. Also not helpful when the screens on the platform itself go blank which I've seen at waterloo at least because those who are unfamiliar can't check they're boarding the right train even if they saw it displayed on the concourse.

Anyway, I'd say we should do away with whistles until say, up to 10 seconds before departure if we are truly worried about unnecessary injuries. I've gotten to platforms with 2 minutes spare, not purposely of course, that's still quite some time when you're already on the platform though. I don't see how hurrying people up way to far in advance is particularly safe. Especially when the train does end up closing its doors quite some time after I board.

Two minutes really isn't that much time if you are faced with a 9 or 10 car unit & you are trying to work out which one you have with a reservation, especially now some services are formed as 2*5 car 80x.
 

jon0844

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While you are right about services dropping off the screen, I don't specifically remember barriers being pulled across the platform a full two minutes before departure. Certainly they don't do that on the bridge so it would be possible to circumvent!

On the bridge, they'll often have the gates ALL set to exit only - so you can't get through at all without dealing with the gateline attendant.
 

Esker-pades

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This 2 minutes rule is really not unique to the UK. All SNCF services require passengers to be on the platform at least 2 minutes before departure. For longer distance travel, that goes up to 5 minutes. If you're told about it, I don't see the fuss.

https://be.oui.sncf/en/help-be/boarding-train
SNCF said:
Some boarding tips to ensure a timely departure of the trains:

TGV, TER and Intercités train travel:

Please present yourself at least 2 minutes before the departure time on the specified platform. Beyond this period, access to the train is no longer guaranteed.

OUIGO train travel:

Please present yourself at least 30 minutes before the departure time on the specified platform. Access to the train may be refused if you leave arrive later than 5 minutes before departure.OUIGO is available at major stations: Bordeaux, Rennes, Nantes, Marseille, Lyon, Lille, Strasbourg, etc.In Paris choose from Paris Montparnasse Hall 3 Vaugirard, Marne la Vallée, Massy or Charles de Gaulle airport, depending on your destination. See the map.

Thalys train travel:

Please present yourself at least 2 minutes before the departure time on the specified platform. Beyond this period, access to the train is no longer guaranteed.

Eurostar train travel:

Please present yourself at least 30 minutes before the departure time on the specified platform. Beyond this period, access to the train is no longer guaranteed. Persons with disabilities who require assistance should be present at least 60 minutes prior to the departure of their train.

Renfe-SNCF train travel:

Please present yourself at least 2 minutes before the departure time on the specified platform. Beyond this period, access to the train is no longer guaranteed.
 

Mountain Man

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But then I'd argue people run when they see the screens go blank as they think the train is leaving earlier when they in fact have a full 2 minutes.
They don't have a full 2 minutes. Because to get from the boards in most termini to the platform and through whatever ticket check takes time.

With 2 mins to departure you just about have enough time to get there.

Less than 2 mins you don't have time anyway
 

LA50041

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On the bridge, they'll often have the gates ALL set to exit only - so you can't get through at all without dealing with the gateline attendant.
To be honest, it’s rare these days to see the bridge barriers closed, maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so
 

jon0844

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They don't have a full 2 minutes. Because to get from the boards in most termini to the platform and through whatever ticket check takes time.

With 2 mins to departure you just about have enough time to get there.

Less than 2 mins you don't have time anyway

Unless you were heavily delayed getting to the station because of another delayed train, you'd never expect to board an Intercity train at an origin station less than two minutes before departure would you? And if your train was delayed before, you'd be put on the next one - or if you missed the last train, a taxi, hotel or whatever.

I regularly hear the suggestion that you simply change the departure time, and then just go two minutes 'late' but that hardly looks good. You now have 99% of the train occupants moaning about the train always leaving late, and in the case of making delay repay claims for real delays have to explain to people that 2 minutes is being taken off their 16/31/61 minute delay and, sorry, you're no longer entitled to what you thought.
 

jon0844

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To be honest, it’s rare these days to see the bridge barriers closed, maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so

Sod's law it is when there's some disruption and there's a last minute change of platform (in my case, platform 10 to 2) and the bridge is the quickest way to get over.. or so you thought as there are others in front who are having long conversations with the attendant and the gates are all red.
 

Bush ranger

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If as indicated on the LNER timetable you need to allow 15 minutes for a connection at KGX should the time built into journey planners be reduced to 13 minutes
 

Aictos

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If I'm sat on a train with an advertised departure time of 1100 I would expect it to leave the station at 1100. Not 1102 after waiting for you to run down the platform, open the doors and get on board. The clue is in the word 'departure'. Maybe the larger stations should follow the airport model and display latest boarding time as well as departure time?

I agree, the departure time is the time that the train departs not as some believe to be the last time you can board the train prior to departure!

If a train is advertised as the 11:09 to York then it should depart at 11:09 not depart at 11:10 or 11:11 because it was held up by passengers dawling along the platform or leaving boarding to the very last second.

Look at it this way, I want to get the 11:09 to York and I have the mindset that I should be able to board up to 11:08:59 then suddenly I have a accident running on the platform as I hear the doors closing, is that my fault for not getting there with time to board or is it the TOCs fault for not moving the public departure time forward?

Judging by some comments, it’s the fault of the nasty customer hating TOC!

If they want the doors to be locked so long before the departure them then the public departure times should be brought forward by a minute or two. Easy!

I think it's a sign that the operator has poor performance and they think that getting trains away a few seconds early is going to make a difference. Of course, it won't. However it will generate much deserved bad publicity for the company.

This is a classic example of the TOC is always wrong and can do no good with their anti passenger mindset.

There is no need to bring the public departure times forward, Joe Public should know by now that the 11:09 departure should be departing at 11:09 and that isn’t the time the doors close prior to departure!

IC services should be timetabled to start the dispatch process 40 seconds to the PUBLIC departure time with the doors closed and right away given for a prompt departure at 11:09.

The conspiracy theory that some have here that TOCs have poorly performing performance figures so think they deliberately choose to close doors early for a earlier departure is misleading and those who sprout this should know better.

Passengers expect a on time service, they don’t expect or pay for a service that is constantly late because people try to board at the very last second and as a example a 11:09 departure leaving at 11:11 might only be 2 mins late leaving the station of origin but well into its journey that 2 min delay would incur delays at other stations en route so a 2 min delay could end up being a much bigger delay.

At stations where departures are removed from station screens 2 minutes prior to departure, this isn’t done so TOCs can massage their performance figures but because there are proven records of accidents happening at that station because people are running for the train eg East Croydon, Luton etc

Yes this might not seem to be customer friendly but it reduces accidents which is far more important.
 

221129

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I'm not sure what this actually gains either, although I'm not against it (my earlier remarks about which time should be published notwithstanding) - either the runner gets on the train before the doors are locked and no-one is delayed, or they don't and they look an idiot waving at the train as the lights go out and it pulls away from the platform...

Is this a hold-over from unlocked slam doors where you couldn't prevent boarding or is it a case of the railway being more cautious than other industries e.g. buses?

Or is it because the people running get angry that the train isn't delayed for them?

Genuinely interested, not just arguing!
A large amount of passengers especially if facing a long wait will think nothing of throwing themselves at the door open button on a train about to move off. Or even a moving train and then feel the correct course of action to a train departing right time is verbally and physically assault staff. Also a runner on the platform trying to catch a moving train where a wrong move could end up with them underneath said train and the platform staff and guard potentially up in front of a court because of their stupidity.
 

Bantamzen

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A large amount of passengers especially if facing a long wait will think nothing of throwing themselves at the door open button on a train about to move off. Or even a moving train and then feel the correct course of action to a train departing right time is verbally and physically assault staff. Also a runner on the platform trying to catch a moving train where a wrong move could end up with them underneath said train and the platform staff and guard potentially up in front of a court because of their stupidity.

Even just as a commuter through Leeds for many years, I have witnessed all sorts of crazy behaviour by some of my fellow travellers. From the people that absolutely must be the first off their incoming train & first onto their connection, regardless of how long they have (I assume there must be some club competition involved here ;)), through people dawdling along a platform only to break into a mad dash when the dispatcher blows their whistle with 30 or seconds to go before departure, to people as you say throwing themselves at dispatched trains, often angrily banging on the side expecting it to stop.

I think what LNER are trying to do at Kings Cross is create a buffer between the services going off the boards & the actual dispatch time to encourage passengers to be on the platform face in good time, and not leave themselves only seconds to dash across a very busy, and sometimes chaotic station. I think it does make some sense, especially somewhere like Kings Cross where the distance from the main gateline on the concourse to at least some of the lower numbered platforms could easily take almost all of that 2 minutes, especially for passengers with luggage, children etc. Basically if your service has dropped off the departures board when you arrive, you've probably left it too late.
 

Aictos

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Haven't we had this discussion at least a dozen times already?

Indeed we have and it’s always the same arguments for and against this, personally I think as it’s been done to death here it ought be classed as a taboo subject eg forbidden to discuss because you’re always going to get the same people posting the exact same post time after time after time.
 

Scotrail314209

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Virgin are ruthless with the 2 minute thing at Euston, yet up at Glasgow or Liverpool they close up 40 seconds before and the train still gets away. Always see people running down the ramp at Euston with about 2 minutes to go and looking really annoyed when they get told they can’t board. I’m not sure if the 2 minute policy is publicised very well at Euston at all, as it seems to catch a lot of people out.
 

ainsworth74

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Haven't we had this discussion at least a dozen times already?

We absolutely have and I whilst I enjoy the nostalgia of re-reading exactly the same discussion as last time I'm not sure that there's anything to be gained by actually carrying on with this thread. If anyone has a burning desire to read more on the subject then a search of the Forum will soon reveal other threads and I guarantee that any argument for or against you were going to make will have already been made!

As such this thread is now locked.
 
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