How early do you need to arrive at a station where there are level crossings

Deafdoggie · 9 Nov 2019

island said:
This used to catch me out occasionally at Stone Crossing where the gates would be locked up 3-4 minutes before the train with the permit to travel machine on the up side.

The installation of a footbridge has put an end to that particular issue.

That’s going back a good few years! Station access only to platform 2 now. Step bridge from there to platform 1. The footpath at the southern end of the station no longer crosses the track, but has a footbridge, but no platform access. Thus meaning longer trains could now call, or even platform extended.
Although permit to travel machine still there, it doesn’t work and there’s a TVM now. Stone is almost in the 21st Century!
The lovely station building is still in use as a community centre, with private residence upstairs.

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Kite159 · 9 Nov 2019

Deafdoggie said:
That’s going back a good few years! Station access only to platform 2 now. Step bridge from there to platform 1. The footpath at the southern end of the station no longer crosses the track, but has a footbridge, but no platform access. Thus meaning longer trains could now call, or even platform extended.
Although permit to travel machine still there, it doesn’t work and there’s a TVM now. Stone is almost in the 21st Century!
The lovely station building is still in use as a community centre, with private residence upstairs.

Stone Crossing is on the Dartford - Gravesend line, it used to have a level crossing which was closed last year and replaced with a large ramped footbridge

Deafdoggie · 9 Nov 2019

Kite159 said:
Stone Crossing is on the Dartford - Gravesend line, it used to have a level crossing which was closed last year and replaced with a large ramped footbridge

OOPS! You see how easy it is for passengers to get confused!

geoffk · 10 Nov 2019

Sherburn-in-Elmet has barriers across the foot crossing which have to be used by someone walking from the town wanting a train towards Hull or Sheffield. This used to be a road crossing but is now for pedestrians only but the barriers were kept. I've seen these stay down for a long time with no trains passing. There is a road overbridge but it's a long walk round. I don't know which side the ticket machine is, if there is one.

Taunton · 10 Nov 2019

I think the real answer to this question is "nobody cares". If you miss your train because the gates were across, possibly unexpectedly because there was an unusual freight or whatever around, then nobody at NR or the TOC minds. But if you get on your train without a ticket, with the only ticket machine over on the opposite platform, and they will have you into court in a flash.

Llanigraham · 10 Nov 2019

And why should Network Rail care? Their responsibility is to run the railway in a safe and correct manner, and if that means barriers have to be down at a certain time then that is what will happen.

Statto · 10 Nov 2019

vlad said:
The thing with Blythe Bridge is that as both platforms are to the east of the A521, the barriers will close before westbound trains arrive and not rise till after the train has left.

I once witnessed one bloke who arrived for his train after the level crossing had closed, so he jumped off the platform and crossed the tracks in front of the train. The guard noticed this, had words with him and refused to let him travel....

The guard could well have called BTP, as that is trespassing.

TheEdge · 10 Nov 2019

TravellingPhil said:
I've been told by family back in my hometown that this is no longer an issue due to a signal being moved along the platform or something. Apparently, the barriers don't have to go down until the Norwich bound train is ready to leave the station now. Haven't been in a while so not sure if this is correct or how it works.

That is what's happened. The signal has been moved back to allow a long enough overlap to bring a train into the platform without lowering the crossing.

For stopping trains now the barriers don't tend to be lowered until the train is at a stand in the platform.

Dr Hoo · 10 Nov 2019

Taunton said:
I think the real answer to this question is "nobody cares". If you miss your train because the gates were across, possibly unexpectedly because there was an unusual freight or whatever around, then nobody at NR or the TOC minds. But if you get on your train without a ticket, with the only ticket machine over on the opposite platform, and they will have you into court in a flash.

Out of interest, can you point to any reports of this actually happening? I couldn't immediately find any cases on the Disputes and Prosecutions forum.

underbank · 10 Nov 2019

TheEdge said:
For stopping trains now the barriers don't tend to be lowered until the train is at a stand in the platform.

Which is surely common sense and far more sensible than having the barrier down for 5/10 minutes before the train even arrives at the station.

Taunton · 10 Nov 2019

Dr Hoo said:
Out of interest, can you point to any reports of this actually happening? I couldn't immediately find any cases on the Disputes and Prosecutions forum.

Press coverage of the Elsenham tragedy noted the Down (village) side ticket facilities had been withdrawn, there was no indication of what to do if the gates were across between you and the ticket facilities, but two notices on the platform with Dire Warnings of what would happen to you if you travelled without a ticket.

TheEdge · 10 Nov 2019

underbank said:
Which is surely common sense and far more sensible than having the barrier down for 5/10 minutes before the train even arrives at the station.

It is but it depends on the crossing, signalling overlaps and control.

I'd water most of these crossings are AHBs without slow speed modes. CCTV and Manual crossing can be opened and closed like that, but even then signaling overlaps may start getting involved. That was the issue at Oulton Broad

Tomnick · 10 Nov 2019

TheEdge said:
It is but it depends on the crossing, signalling overlaps and control.

I'd water most of these crossings are AHBs without slow speed modes. CCTV and Manual crossing can be opened and closed like that, but even then signaling overlaps may start getting involved. That was the issue at Oulton Broad

Are there any AHBs with a station inside the controls that *don’t* have stopping controls? It’s quite common at this time of year to find them set to non-stop mode for all trains regardless, and sometimes the wrong mode’s selected presumably in error, but I’ve never come across one that’s just not provided with it!

Old Yard Dog · 10 Nov 2019

I remember staying in a hotel in the south of Lowestoft and was worried that the swing bridge over the harbour entrance might open and prevent me from getting to the station in time to get my booked train back to Norwich (for Liverpool and Little Sutton). Had I missed it I would have been well out of pocket as, unusually for me, I had an Advance ticket.

Bevan Price · 10 Nov 2019

Statto said:
The guard could well have called BTP, as that is trespassing.

But would have been quite legal for 100+ years until some safety geek decreed that flat "barrow" crossings at the ends of station platforms were "unsafe" and had to be eliminated (at most stations - I think that Ribblehead and some other stations still retain barrow crossings.)

Ianno87 · 10 Nov 2019

Bevan Price said:
But would have been quite legal for 100+ years until some safety geek decreed that flat "barrow" crossings at the ends of station platforms were "unsafe" and had to be eliminated (at most stations - I think that Ribblehead and some other stations still retain barrow crossings.)

Because they *are* a safety risk.

underbank · 10 Nov 2019

Ianno87 said:
Because they *are* a safety risk.

So why is it "safe" at Ribblehead?

Dr Hoo · 10 Nov 2019

underbank said:
So why is it "safe" at Ribblehead?

I suspect that the (undoubted) 'risk' is As Low As Reasonably Practicable given the relatively modest footfall when compared to the costs of a full ramped footbridge (or lifts) at a remote location. Also an element of 'grandfather rights'. No way would it be acceptable for a new station.

A lot of stations that had foot or staff-supervised barrow crossings of one sort or another, as identified in the RAIB wider report around the Elsenham double tragedy, have been dealt with subsequently. Woodlesford and Ham Street, Slough and Grantham to name just a few.

Intermodal · 10 Nov 2019

I think generally arriving an hour and fifteen minutes early would be sufficient in all situations. That way you can probably catch the train an hour before, and if not you still have the buffer of the one an hour later so you aren't late. Of course if it's a 30 minute service just arrive 45 early, or for a 15 minute service 30 early.

Dr Hoo · 10 Nov 2019

On any 'trip' (not just to a station with a busy level crossing and no footbridge) having about an hour and fifteen minutes 'up your sleeve' is always a good idea. At least for important events.

The other day I had to make a local car trip and allowed the usual 'Peak District Twenty Minute Rule', duly arriving at my destination precisely 'on time' after the customary random delays for animals and road works. My host was outside and noted my arrival, suggesting that I turned the car round and parked on the opposite side of the road. In doing this (and just out of sight) I then encountered a distressed and confused elderly person in a dishevelled state wandering around in the street and had to stop and assist them back to a place of security. While this was happening a nearby public building had an emergency alert and a flood of fire appliances, ambulances and police vehicles turned up, declared an exclusion zone and trapped me on the other side of it. It was thus necessary to go on a ten mile un-signposted diversion and I got back to my original destination (still facing the 'wrong way') fifty minutes late.

There is no such thing as 'too much time'.

geoffk · 10 Nov 2019

underbank said:
So why is it "safe" at Ribblehead?

and Dent, Horton-in-Ribbledale, Penistone, Giggleswick, Uttoxeter, Hayle (?) - these off the top of my head, must be others.

TheEdge · 10 Nov 2019

Old Yard Dog said:
I remember staying in a hotel in the south of Lowestoft and was worried that the swing bridge over the harbour entrance might open and prevent me from getting to the station in time to get my booked train back to Norwich (for Liverpool and Little Sutton). Had I missed it I would have been well out of pocket as, unusually for me, I had an Advance ticket.

General advice here is never cross that bridge while on duty, just in case.

Bevan Price · 10 Nov 2019

Ianno87 said:
Because they *are* a safety risk.

(Devil's Advocate comment): So is crossing a road - probably a lot more dangerous on many roads -- but they have not (yet) stopped people crossing roads .

Plethora · 11 Nov 2019

Bevan Price said:
(Devil's Advocate comment): So is crossing a road - probably a lot more dangerous on many roads -- but they have not (yet) stopped people crossing roads .

Pedestrian access to Dual Carriageways and Motorways is generally restricted. I would say that there is no obvious safety reason to restrict pedestrian crossings on rural branch line stations where there is no through traffic.

Dr Hoo · 11 Nov 2019

Plethora said:
Pedestrian access to Dual Carriageways and Motorways is generally restricted. I would say that there is no obvious safety reason to restrict pedestrian crossings on rural branch line stations where there is no through traffic.

Which is not particularly relevant in relation to this thread, inspired by the ‘multiple through trains in quick succession’ syndrome.

underbank · 11 Nov 2019

Dr Hoo said:
On any 'trip' (not just to a station with a busy level crossing and no footbridge) having about an hour and fifteen minutes 'up your sleeve' is always a good idea. At least for important events.

Expecting passengers to arrive ridiculously early makes a mockery of the railway industry making so much fuss about journey time improvements of a few minutes. I've long thought a reliable service is far more important than shaving a few minutes off a journey - what does it matter if you can get to London 15 minutes quicker if, because of "improvements" to your local station, you have to get there more than 15 minutes sooner "just in case" the barriers are down, or 75 minutes sooner "just in case" your train is cancelled etc. If that's the case, the billions spent to shorten the journey time by 15 minutes is a complete waste!

Dr Hoo · 11 Nov 2019

underbank said:
Expecting passengers to arrive ridiculously early makes a mockery of the railway industry making so much fuss about journey time improvements of a few minutes. I've long thought a reliable service is far more important than shaving a few minutes off a journey - what does it matter if you can get to London 15 minutes quicker if, because of "improvements" to your local station, you have to get there more than 15 minutes sooner "just in case" the barriers are down, or 75 minutes sooner "just in case" your train is cancelled etc. If that's the case, the billions spent to shorten the journey time by 15 minutes is a complete waste!

I wasn’t aware that there had been any ‘improvements’ to Bentley station that had changed things. It was essentially a brand new PTE-funded station at a level crossing that had no footbridge. Electrification means that any footbridge would have to be quite tall and unattractive to use.
In common with many lines services are now more frequent. I suspect that recent operation of extensive test and training trips for both the LNER Azumas and Northern Class 331s on the Leeds-Doncaster line has made a material difference to capacity utilisation and ‘long lowers’.

Islineclear3_1 · 11 Nov 2019

Bevan Price said:
But would have been quite legal for 100+ years until some safety geek decreed that flat "barrow" crossings at the ends of station platforms were "unsafe" and had to be eliminated (at most stations - I think that Ribblehead and some other stations still retain barrow crossings.)

Last time I remember, Canterbury East still had a barrow crossing but not sure if this is used any more.

There is no disabled access from the Down Platform to the Up without having to walk (via the street and under the bridge) to the Up Platform and press a buzzer at the gate to be let through

Islineclear3_1 · 11 Nov 2019

Bevan Price said:
(Devil's Advocate comment): So is crossing a road - probably a lot more dangerous on many roads -- but they have not (yet) stopped people crossing roads .

At the risk of going OT, many roads, dual carriageways etc have pelicon crossings, bridges or under-passes to allow safe crossing.

Of course, if people don't want want to use them....

Islineclear3_1 · 11 Nov 2019

Intermodal said:
I think generally arriving an hour and fifteen minutes early would be sufficient in all situations. That way you can probably catch the train an hour before, and if not you still have the buffer of the one an hour later so you aren't late. Of course if it's a 30 minute service just arrive 45 early, or for a 15 minute service 30 early.

Excellent idea!

I'm sure everybody has the time and nothing else better to do than to hang around at a station 1 hour 15min early. What happens if I arrive at my local rural station with no amenities; the train before my planned train is cancelled meaning I have to wait an hour for the next service in the freezing cold exposed to the elements !?

How early do you need to arrive at a station where there are level crossings

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