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Class 700 follow on order

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MML

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Is there any hope of a follow-on order for more Siemens Class 700 for Thameslink services ?

I often spot an 8-car 700/0 operating on primary Bedford to Brighton services. The last time it was departing London Bridge full and bursting on a peak-hour service to Brighton. Given that every carriage was full with standing passengers throughout the aisle and the next station stop was East Croydon, I was wondering why all these services weren't now being operated by 12-car 700/1 units given the platform lengths are suitable for 12-car units.

Either a follow-on order for more 12-car units or an order to extend some 8-car units to 12-car would be wise before production of these units ceases.

The 700's are light, bright and very spacious inside. A real improvement over the rather cramped and dimly lit interiors of many Electrostars in use by Southern.
 
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I think the 8 cars have to cycle through Brighton main line turns due to three bridges being the main maintenance facility

There is a tiny facility at Hornsey which Horsham drivers don't even sign

The 8s are necessary for Thameslink metro:

Sutton
Orpington
Rainham
Sevenoaks

Due to platform lengths ?

The Maidstone services which will run semi fast to Cambridge from Kings Cross and call at Foxton etc are also 8s and are in operation from Kings Cross to Cambridge at the moment . It is not known if the Maidstone/Ashford service will ever start *

The peak sevenoaks to welwyn are also abandoned and only running from Kings Cross. Those are also 8s.

Not often there's praise for 700s. I find them too bright. The legroom is dreadful on the window seats as mentioned many times and is in stark contrast to 387s etc which have great leg room.

*Ashford depot are presumably covering Orpington and Sevenoaks services thus reducing the need for more drivers at Orpington . No idea if route learning is underway on the new route but I can imagine the service never happening. Kings cross will be lumbered with 700s on semi fasts to Cambridge in that case despite not serving the thameslink core
 
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JonathanH

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I was wondering why all these services weren't now being operated by 12-car 700/1 units given the platform lengths are suitable for 12-car units.

Either a follow-on order for more 12-car units or an order to extend some 8-car units to 12-car would be wise before production of these units ceases.

Production of these units has already ceased.

Whilst there aren't enough 12-car units to operate all of the longer distance services, all of the 8-car workings on the Bedford to East Grinstead / Brighton / Gatwick route are linked to standing at Bedford Carriage Sidings which can only take an 8-car unit so as discussed before, it would appear that the standing arrangements would need to be resolved at Bedford before any lengthening could occur.

They have already changed the 8-car diagrams once. Trouble is that almost all of the diagrams hit the peak in one direction or the other.

There would be ways of getting 8-car units to Three Bridges without them having to do peak trains to Brighton if there were enough 12-car units available.
 
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JonathanH

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I haven't been on a 700 yet, are they really as bad as some people say?

No. They are commuter trains designed for a specific purpose and serve that purpose well (subject to some gripes about the ducting for heating, upright seats and the fact they were designed some time before they were constructed so don't have plug sockets and only some have seat back tables and Wi-Fi).
 

westcoaster

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The reason you see the RLU's out and about on the mainline is that they need to be cycled around the network. If there was no RLU's through the canal tunnels, the units on the GN side would never move across to the TL side.
 

JonathanH

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The reason you see the RLU's out and about on the mainline is that they need to be cycled around the network. If there was no RLU's through the canal tunnels, the units on the GN side would never move across to the TL side.

I don't think there are any 8-cars booked on Cambridge to Brighton or Peterborough to Horsham during the week. As you note there is a need to cycle units but think this is done on Sundays using the Cambridge to Gatwick route. Are there any booked 8-cars 700s to Peterborough now?
 

TRAX

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I haven't been on a 700 yet, are they really as bad as some people say?

No. They’re doing exactly what they were designed to do, that is mass-moving huge numbers of people everyday in and out of a huge metropolis.
Those who say they’re bad trains are the ones who expect trains to be as comfortable as their home sofa, and the ones who complain about having to wait for the next crowded train for a chance of getting on then not understanding why we now focus on more standing space in commuter/suburban trains.
 

Hadders

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I haven't been on a 700 yet, are they really as bad as some people say?

The trains themselves are ok. The issue is the standard class seat design - insufficient leg room, insufficient width (the seats are too close to the edge of the train), no seat back tables on many units, no power sockets (a problem for some)

I don't think there are any 8-cars booked on Cambridge to Brighton or Peterborough to Horsham during the week.

The 08:02 from Stevenage has been 8-car on a couple of occasions I've caught it. Not sure if this is planned or due to disruption. Also a late night train I caught back to Stevenage from Finsbury Park was 8-car (can't remember what time it was but it was going to Cambridge).
 

LA50041

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It’s quite amazing watching one arrive at East Croydon in the morning onto a packed platform, it seems to Hoover up people and very quickly too.
 

Hadders

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It’s quite amazing watching one arrive at East Croydon in the morning onto a packed platform, it seems to Hoover up people and very quickly too.

I agree they are very good at hovering up people (the wide doors and their speed of opening help greatly). Unfortunately the seats could've been much better without having to impact on the trains overall hoovering ability!
 

bramling

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I don't think there are any 8-cars booked on Cambridge to Brighton or Peterborough to Horsham during the week. As you note there is a need to cycle units but think this is done on Sundays using the Cambridge to Gatwick route. Are there any booked 8-cars 700s to Peterborough now?

Peterborough to Horsham is all 12-car, however there is one Cambridge to Brighton diagram booked for 8-car.

*All* the GN 8-car diagrams are captive, including the above mentioned Cambridge to Brighton diagram which starts and finishes at Hornsey. There is, however, a daily changeover ECS path from Hornsey to Three Bridges and back since the last timetable change, and whilst it doesn’t in practice run every day it does seem to run fairly often as the GN 8-cars are now changing over much more regularly than at the beginning when the same units remained on GN for months at a time. Now some units are only on GN for a week or two, although some are lingering for longer. As an aside it’s noticeable that units stuck on GN generally suffer much less vandalism like etched windows!

Extending the RLUs on the GN side would cause issues with stabling - currently Letchworth stables two and Welwyn stables three, and both these locations I believe can’t take 12-cars. Likewise Cambridge is also short of stabling although enhancements here are in hand.

The biggest stabling headache on TL is of course Bedford, currently at the extremes of the day we see RLUs working north to start or stable there whilst FLUs work south from or to Cricklewood.
 

bramling

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I agree they are very good at hovering up people (the wide doors and their speed of opening help greatly). Unfortunately the seats could've been much better without having to impact on the trains overall hoovering ability!

Seat the whole train like in first class and they wouldn’t be too bad, the ducting issue would the go away as the seats would be further out. Carpet and some partitioning would also be preferable so noise doesn’t carry through the train. Since it’s looking increasingly likely 24tph isn’t going to happen, there’s little excuse for why this couldn’t happen...
 

ScotGG

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The Rainham trains are 8 car and one reason given was Woolwich Dockyard not being able to take 12 car.

Yet it doesn't stop at Woolwich Dockyard! And SDO at one station wouldn't be too difficult.

The reality is there aren't enough 12 car trains for the line
 

JonathanH

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The Rainham trains are 8 car and one reason given was Woolwich Dockyard not being able to take 12 car.

A second reason, of course, is that it is the Rainham service whose units have to spend the night in Bedford Carriage Sidings as 'mainline' units can't.
 

Ethano92

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Seat the whole train like in first class and they wouldn’t be too bad, the ducting issue would the go away as the seats would be further out. Carpet and some partitioning would also be preferable so noise doesn’t carry through the train. Since it’s looking increasingly likely 24tph isn’t going to happen, there’s little excuse for why this couldn’t happen...

Problem is you now have a narrower aisle, due to 3 armrests and physically wider seats. The aisles of Desiro city units are just what Hoover's people up, alongside large lobbies, with 2 people being able to hold on to one seat handle on both sides of the aisle. Also helpful on airport bound trains when the luggage racks have filled up. Does 1st class have the same seat pitch out of interest, because I would think legroom would be further limited by the wider backs.

As for carpet I agree completely, although I wouldn't have partitions as the wide, walk through element really does work. Even the way Siemens designed the section between carriges to be able to stand on unlike say the s stock which was the first rendition of walk through trains in the UK (?) I suppose you can see their motive to not include carpets, accompanied by cantilevered seats; it is of course easy cleaning.

Desiros were a really good attempt and I would happily consider them perfect if they had seat back tables, plug points and WiFi but of course the spec was made too early to include this. Design flaws are obviously the heating ducts, and I'd say lack of handles especially by the doors for a train with standing passengers in mind. Door open buttons should've also been on both sides of the door on the inside.
 

Energy

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On a side note please title the thread to something like "Class 700 follow on order" as just "Class 700" doesn't tell people much.
 

AM9

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Problem is you now have a narrower aisle, due to 3 armrests and physically wider seats. The aisles of Desiro city units are just what Hoover's people up, alongside large lobbies, with 2 people being able to hold on to one seat handle on both sides of the aisle. Also helpful on airport bound trains when the luggage racks have filled up. Does 1st class have the same seat pitch out of interest, because I would think legroom would be further limited by the wider backs....
It's been noted here by somebody who knows the 700s well that because the air con. is largely fitted above the ceiling, (along with a lot of other electrical kit), that the panels cannot have more mounting points for hand holds.

As for carpet I agree completely, although I wouldn't have partitions as the wide, walk through element really does work. Even the way Siemens designed the section between carriges to be able to stand on unlike say the s stock which was the first rendition of walk through trains in the UK (?) I suppose you can see their motive to not include carpets, accompanied by cantilevered seats; it is of course easy cleaning. ...
Given their us on some of the busiest routes in the UK, carpet might be welcome when new, but I can't think of anything worse on the floor than matted carpet clogged with dried spilt coffee and other passenger detritis. At least they are cleaned easily, especially with the cantilevered seat mountings.
 

Mikey C

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A second reason, of course, is that it is the Rainham service whose units have to spend the night in Bedford Carriage Sidings as 'mainline' units can't.

The Rainham 8 car trains certainly aren't due to issues or lack of demand in SE London and Kent, but then Thameslink trains were never meant to go that way anyway.

Indeed the fixed formation feels rather inflexible, 8 cars during quiet times when the Southeastern trains are 4 or 5 car, still 8 cars during the rush hour when the Southeastern trains are 8, 10 or even 12 car.
 

Class455

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Why would they need a follow on order when there's 30 Class 707's becoming spare from SWR in a few years time which can easily run in pairs as a 10 car unit? It could even give TL the opportunity to have services to places with short platforms, like Caterham and Tattenham Corner.
 

LdnNiko

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Why would they need a follow on order when there's 30 Class 707's becoming spare from SWR in a few years time which can easily run in pairs as a 10 car unit? It could even give TL the opportunity to have services to places with short platforms, like Caterham and Tattenham Corner.

Keeping similar class stock with the same TOC would be far too sensible.
Someone clever at the DfT will think that installing the pantographs will be too costly, so will send the units to Southeastern.
 

Bringback309s

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The 707s will need a home, could they not come across? Could they be made four car to strengthen 8 car units?
 

hooverboy

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On a side note please title the thread to something like "Class 700 follow on order" as just "Class 700" doesn't tell people much.
no reason for a follow on order when there's a lot of 707's going spare.
It'll be much easier to retrofit those with 25kvac and turn them into dual mode like the 700's.
 

hooverboy

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The 707s will need a home, could they not come across? Could they be made four car to strengthen 8 car units?
they are 5 car,so I would have thought they would run in 5/10 formation.
they might reduce to 4/8 if there are stations with limited platform accomodation.
 

plugwash

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I haven't been on a 700 yet, are they really as bad as some people say?
Ultimately they are optimised for capacity over comfort, this is nessacery to support peak time loadings through the central core, but it kinda sucks for everyone else who uses the services, particualrly those making long journeys.
 

Ethano92

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they are 5 car,so I would have thought they would run in 5/10 formation.
they might reduce to 4/8 if there are stations with limited platform accomodation.

Aren't there more 8 cars than currently needed. I suppose when having 707s in pairs the centre cabs would prevent doors lining up with markings on the floor but that's a minor issue.
 

AM9

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Ultimately they are optimised for capacity over comfort, this is nessacery to support peak time loadings through the central core, but it kinda sucks for everyone else who uses the services, particualrly those making long journeys.
That's a consequence of catering for a commuter squeeze that lasts less than four hours per day. Most of the investment on commuter lines is not needed for the other 20 hours per weekday.
 

hwl

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Why would they need a follow on order when there's 30 Class 707's becoming spare from SWR in a few years time which can easily run in pairs as a 10 car unit? It could even give TL the opportunity to have services to places with short platforms, like Caterham and Tattenham Corner.
The 707s have fewer traction motors than 700s
The 707s have less powerful traction motors than 700s
+ 1 fewer traction electronics box
The 707s have the same transformers (when test fitted to the first few units) as 8car 700 (which have 2 rather 1)
--> Net effect only 60% of 700 power hence traction equipment replacement and reconfiguration needed
No Toilets

So a fairly large rebuild needed for starters.

On Thameslink the centre cars contain the wheelchairs spaces e.g. 4/5 (8car) or 6/7 (12car) hence they would need to be completely reformed to make this work.

So to get some extra 8 car units (11x) from 707 would leave you with 40 scrap vehicle overall. But the core issue is a shortage of 12 car units some what caused by DfT reducing the number of 12cars ordered by 5 and increasing the number of 8 car ordered by 5 fairly late on. The was an earlier reduction of 10 x 12 car units so 15 fewer 12 car than originally planned in total.

Hence re-building 707 trailer cars (90 total) for lengthening 8car 700 is the only sensible option which would get you another 22 units of 12 car + a lot of scrap driving cars so may be rebuild/reform 707s to 3 car and use the other centre cars post rebuild to lengthen 8-12 car sets which would get you 15x more 12 car units...
 

hwl

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Aren't there more 8 cars than currently needed. I suppose when having 707s in pairs the centre cabs would prevent doors lining up with markings on the floor but that's a minor issue.
The wheelchairs spaces not lining up with the platform humps in the core (inc. LBG) is a far bigger issue...
 

Ianno87

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I don't think there are any 8-cars booked on Cambridge to Brighton or Peterborough to Horsham during the week. As you note there is a need to cycle units but think this is done on Sundays using the Cambridge to Gatwick route. Are there any booked 8-cars 700s to Peterborough now?

The circuit that involves the 0724, 1254 and 1824 Cambridge-Brighton workings is a diagrammed 8-car.
 
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