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How early do you need to arrive at a station where there are level crossings

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ashkeba

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At the risk of going OT, many roads, dual carriageways etc have pelicon crossings, bridges or under-passes to allow safe crossing.

Of course, if people don't want want to use them....
If people don't want to use them, they don't have to, but it's their risk. But on railways, we blame the railway, which seems strange, and leads to old pedestrian gates being locked out of use, barrow crossings removed, forcing them to walk across level crossings with motor traffic without pavements (because there were other safer pedestrian crossings) and poor passengers desperately trying to reach their train being insulted on TV news as examples of gamblers selfishly trying to jump crossings.

Better solutions should be found but this mostly affects rural stations and the prevailing attitude is they should be thankful to still have stations, no matter if they have to arrive 75 minutes before their intended train as suggested above!
 
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al78

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(Devil's Advocate comment): So is crossing a road - probably a lot more dangerous on many roads -- but they have not (yet) stopped people crossing roads .

Roads are public rights of way, pedestrians have an absolute right in law to use them (except for special roads), and drivers are expected to take this into account when driving, for example by driving at a speed so they can stop within the distance they can see to be clear. Trains aren't operated like road vehicles.
 

al78

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Excellent idea!

I'm sure everybody has the time and nothing else better to do than to hang around at a station 1 hour 15min early. What happens if I arrive at my local rural station with no amenities; the train before my planned train is cancelled meaning I have to wait an hour for the next service in the freezing cold exposed to the elements !?

Quite. If I was expected to add an hour plus padding to any local journeys I make by train, the train would be useless for me, as I might as well cycle any distance up to 25 miles.
 

underbank

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It's another downside of centralising control and removing local signal boxes at stations/crossings etc. Whilst there was a signal box at Bare Lane, the signalman would make sure that people got their train - there was a signal on the Morecambe platform protecting the crossing so the gates didn't need to be closed until the train was ready to depart. Lancaster bound trains would be held if people were stuck on the wrong side of the crossing. Now, the crossing is semi-automatic/overseen by Preston, by anonymous signallers who don't care whether people miss their train or not, nor whether pedestrians/motorists are held up by the gates being closed for silly amounts of time. No doubt at all it's more "efficient" for Network Rail, in terms of fewer staff, not having the costs of a signal box, cheaper infrastructure (i.e. no/few signals etc) but it's certainly not more efficient for the general public affected by it all. I think Network Rail needs to be challenged more and forced to take into account the effects on the general public, both rail travellers and otherwise. It's not as if Bare Lane is on a busy/fast line.
 

al78

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It's another downside of centralising control and removing local signal boxes at stations/crossings etc. Whilst there was a signal box at Bare Lane, the signalman would make sure that people got their train - there was a signal on the Morecambe platform protecting the crossing so the gates didn't need to be closed until the train was ready to depart. Lancaster bound trains would be held if people were stuck on the wrong side of the crossing. Now, the crossing is semi-automatic/overseen by Preston, by anonymous signallers who don't care whether people miss their train or not, nor whether pedestrians/motorists are held up by the gates being closed for silly amounts of time. No doubt at all it's more "efficient" for Network Rail, in terms of fewer staff, not having the costs of a signal box, cheaper infrastructure (i.e. no/few signals etc) but it's certainly not more efficient for the general public affected by it all. I think Network Rail needs to be challenged more and forced to take into account the effects on the general public, both rail travellers and otherwise. It's not as if Bare Lane is on a busy/fast line.

Reducing financial costs by externalising costs onto others, same old same old.
 

SteveM70

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Where there’s a level crossing with platforms both sides but no other means of crossing the railway, it should be incumbent on the TOC operating the station to make sure there are ticket buying facilities (office and/or TVM) on both sides to at least eliminate any need for passengers to cross the lines twice
 

Goofle

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I arrived at Gobowen this morning at 0603, and the barriers went down at 0605 for the 0609 departure...
 

Goofle

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On any 'trip' (not just to a station with a busy level crossing and no footbridge) having about an hour and fifteen minutes 'up your sleeve' is always a good idea. At least for important events.
I'd say this is dependant on the length of journey, surely? If I was just travelling one stop on a line with a frequent service I'd consider 75 minutes sat around (in the current cold in particular!!) as massively OTT, however when I travelled from Mexborough to Helensburgh frequently I'd try to make it so I'd arrive with at least one hour in hand so I'd not miss the last bus (as often happened if I risked the last possible connection).
 

LAX54

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Asking people to arrive 15 minutes before the departure of the service really isn’t going to encourage people to use it.

It surely all depends on the actual location ? 10 to 15 mins is not long in the scheme of things, if the station has AHB's then 5 mins would be ample, but if protected by controlled signlas, then yes 10 to 15 would be best, Signalling regulations have tightened up where signals can be placed now, so in the past where you could run into a station on a red, but with the barriers up, are fast being replaced when resignalling takes place, What has happened to people taking responsibilty for themselves, why is it always someone else's fault and can I claim compo/delay and repay ?
 

Dr Hoo

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I'd say this is dependant on the length of journey, surely? If I was just travelling one stop on a line with a frequent service I'd consider 75 minutes sat around (in the current cold in particular!!) as massively OTT, however when I travelled from Mexborough to Helensburgh frequently I'd try to make it so I'd arrive with at least one hour in hand so I'd not miss the last bus (as often happened if I risked the last possible connection).
Fair enough. When I lived in a town with a half hourly service to London and cycled to the station with a wide range of routes I allowed less time. Since retiring to a rural part of the North and had to rely on hourly train and bus services at best I quickly deduced my 75 minute ‘rule’. In London with often frequent services and alternative modes and routes a lower figure may well be enough.
I just aim for stress-free journeys.
 

ashkeba

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10-15 minutes "not long in the scheme of things"? Maybe not, but my whole life is the blink of an eye in geological terms and I still don't want to spend it standing on a windswept unstaffed station! Reinstate barrow crossings or install footbridges, else you're just driving passengers back into driving.
 

geoffk

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Expecting passengers to arrive ridiculously early makes a mockery of the railway industry making so much fuss about journey time improvements of a few minutes. I've long thought a reliable service is far more important than shaving a few minutes off a journey - what does it matter if you can get to London 15 minutes quicker if, because of "improvements" to your local station, you have to get there more than 15 minutes sooner "just in case" the barriers are down, or 75 minutes sooner "just in case" your train is cancelled etc. If that's the case, the billions spent to shorten the journey time by 15 minutes is a complete waste!
Then, at your destination, you have to wait for the doors to be opened, squeeze through a limited number of doors, queue for the ticket gates etc., none of which was necessary in the days of slam-door stock and open stations.
 

Llanigraham

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It's another downside of centralising control and removing local signal boxes at stations/crossings etc. Whilst there was a signal box at Bare Lane, the signalman would make sure that people got their train - there was a signal on the Morecambe platform protecting the crossing so the gates didn't need to be closed until the train was ready to depart. Lancaster bound trains would be held if people were stuck on the wrong side of the crossing. Now, the crossing is semi-automatic/overseen by Preston, by anonymous signallers who don't care whether people miss their train or not, nor whether pedestrians/motorists are held up by the gates being closed for silly amounts of time. No doubt at all it's more "efficient" for Network Rail, in terms of fewer staff, not having the costs of a signal box, cheaper infrastructure (i.e. no/few signals etc) but it's certainly not more efficient for the general public affected by it all. I think Network Rail needs to be challenged more and forced to take into account the effects on the general public, both rail travellers and otherwise. It's not as if Bare Lane is on a busy/fast line.

Thank you for your kind support for all signallers.
Believe it or not our first priority is SAFETY and if that means that some passengers can't arrive in time to use a level crossing then so be it.
And good luck with challenging Network Rail and asking them to reduce safety. I suspect the answer might be blunt.
 

Deafdoggie

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and Dent, Horton-in-Ribbledale, Penistone, Giggleswick, Uttoxeter, Hayle (?) - these off the top of my head, must be others.
Uttoxeter and Hayle can be removed from this list, as they no longer have barrow crossings.
 

Deafdoggie

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Uttoxeter has a ramped bridge.
Hayle has direct access onto both platforms. There’s an underpass (virtually directly underneath where the barrow crossing was!) to gain access. There’s also a footpath into town down the old rail bed that went to the harbour.
 

geoffk

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Uttoxeter has a ramped bridge.
Hayle has direct access onto both platforms. There’s an underpass (virtually directly underneath where the barrow crossing was!) to gain access. There’s also a footpath into town down the old rail bed that went to the harbour.
Ok thanks, shows how long it is since I visited either.
 

al78

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10-15 minutes "not long in the scheme of things"? Maybe not, but my whole life is the blink of an eye in geological terms and I still don't want to spend it standing on a windswept unstaffed station! Reinstate barrow crossings or install footbridges, else you're just driving passengers back into driving.

It is like an insurance policy. You invest small amounts of time regularly to mitigate the risk of spending a large amount of time having to sort out alternative transport because some rare and unexpected delay cocked up your timings.
 

Statto

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That is what's happened. The signal has been moved back to allow a long enough overlap to bring a train into the platform without lowering the crossing.

For stopping trains now the barriers don't tend to be lowered until the train is at a stand in the platform.

That is not the case on the Merseyrail network, barriers go down before the train has arrived at the previous station, certainly the case with Leasowe
 

option

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If you go to a station that you are unfamiliar with, leaving it so tight that there is no time to find the entrance, wait to get through the ticket barriers, find the right platform, negotiate a footbridge or underpass, etc. then you are surely setting yourself up to miss the train.

If 8 minutes isn't enough time, then what is?
 

Goofle

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When the platform is immediately after the station - eg Gobowen going south - do the barriers open while the train is still in the platform and does it wait long enough for people who may have been stuck on the wrong side of the line to dash on? This probably wouldn't work for motorists but pedestrians should be able to get on board?
 

Dr Hoo

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If 8 minutes isn't enough time, then what is?
It all depends on the station and the traveller!
How long do you allow to get to the station in the first place? Bus late? Taxi not turned up? Road works? Can't find car keys?...
How long will it take to park car, buy parking ticket, unload luggage, get kids into buggies, unfold wheelchair or whatever?
How long will it take to access station from car park? Multi-storey, a couple of streets away, level crossing on the way?
How long will it take to obtain ticket? Queues at busy times, machine inconveniently situated, card declined?
How long will it take to access platform? Waiting for lifts with buggy, luggage or wheelchair? Locating and 'checking in' with assistance staff?
Obviously some of these can be avoided or mitigated if you live close to a station, already have a ticket, are fit and unencumbered, have used the station loads of time before and so forth; but basically the real answer is "enough time (and then some)". Hence my personal '20 minutes Peak District access premium + service interval contingency (against cancellation or too full to board)'.
 

Gems

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Cononley in North Yorkshire is a great example of this.

You do feel sorry for people trapped waiting to cross, but you can't wait for the barriers to rise, because they might not. I always wait if I can, but I am painfully aware that the barriers at Kildwick are also down. If that distant signal is green, gotta go, because the traffic delays at Kildwick become unmanageable, and lots of local councilors throw hissy fits, even though it was them who wanted industrial units rather than a bridge.
 

option

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Nobody has to ask them to arrive 15 mins early. The suggestion was that people might want to allow 15 mins. As usual, it's up to the individual to take responsibility for themselves, not just assume that someone else has sorted it out for them.

People can take responsibility if they are provided with relevant information.

As has been said, connection stations have published connection times. They do that because they are different to the norm.
Stations where the only access to a platform is via a level crossing are also different to the norm, so the same could be done for them.
 

Bantamzen

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People can take responsibility if they are provided with relevant information.

As has been said, connection stations have published connection times. They do that because they are different to the norm.
Stations where the only access to a platform is via a level crossing are also different to the norm, so the same could be done for them.

It could, except of course where there might be delayed or additional services meaning the connection time goes out of the window. I suppose with the data feeds it might be possible to estimate the time the barriers will be down based on the next set of services due through, and display this at the crossing, although by the time you got there it might already be too late. So it could also be added onto NR/TOC apps, but this would assume that the passengers bother to check in good time & regularly as the time could change quickly.

I think the point here is that at some station level crossings, or indeed any, the length of time needed is always going to be variable. Of course some local knowledge might help, if a station on a branch line sees only 1tph in each direction passing at around the same time you'd add in a bit of extra time just in case. But somewhere on a busy line, with lots of different services, both passenger & freight, knowing exactly when to go to avoid missing a train is much more of a gamble. So its plan for the worst, hope for the best.
 

Llanigraham

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When the platform is immediately after the station - eg Gobowen going south - do the barriers open while the train is still in the platform and does it wait long enough for people who may have been stuck on the wrong side of the line to dash on? This probably wouldn't work for motorists but pedestrians should be able to get on board?

Can't answer for Gobowen, but at Caersws, (single line) for trains bound for Shrewsbury, the barriers come down when they approach the previous level crossing, and stay down whilst the train is in the platform, so probably 7 minutes in total, with 5 on the approach, so you cannot get to the platform from the car park.
In the coast direction they come down before it crosses the preceding Llani Rd crossing but rise once it has stopped at the platform, so you could get to it but it would be a rush.
There is no room to build a bridge, or an underpass, since the station is built on a protected Roman Fort, and on land with a very high water table, being so close to the Severn.
 

Plethora

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Which is not particularly relevant in relation to this thread, inspired by the ‘multiple through trains in quick succession’ syndrome.

Implicit therein is that where there is through traffic they will not be appropriate. The real answer is that level crossings on mainline should have been phased out years ago.
 
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