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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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GrimShady

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Are these issues occurring on the other Wabtec refurb HST fleets or are they not as complex as the ScR versions?

What are the refurb specs as per each fleet?
 
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cf111

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Today's 1010 Queen Street to Inverness is a single 158 vice a 170. I know things are bad but I don't think I've ever seen a table missing!
IMG-20191108-095551.jpg

Image shows a bay of four seats on a Scotrail 158 with the table removed.
 
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hexagon789

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Today's 1010 Queen Street to Inverness is a single 158 vice a 170. I know things are bad but I don't think I've ever seen a table missing!
IMG-20191108-095551.jpg

Image shows a bay of four seats on a Scotrail 158 with the table removed.

Even without the table, that legroom is cosy!
 

Highland37

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The service and stock isn't up to scratch. The proponents of continuing with the HST as the core fleet, as opposed to viewing them as a stop-gap before new stock is ordered (in other words continuing what is happening right now), can neither say when they will be in service and how reliable there are likely to be.

Meanwhile, a new stock order would be subject to unforeseen delays but at least provide some vague idea of when it will appear and that it might actually work!

I was in Inverness Station on Tuesday and pleasantly surprised to see a refurb HST at Platform 3. The board said "on time" and due to depart at 1444. At 1448 it was still there when I saw it.
 

Highland37

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TPE Nova 3 type trains would be good, but who's gonna pay?

Dinna ken but so much money has been wasted on the HSTs now it sort of has to work. Mind you, Crossrail is heading for £2 billion over budget and various parties have found a magic money tree so the ultimate answer is the Chinese Government.
 

cf111

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Even without the table, that legroom is cosy!
I normally go for the airline seats on busy 158s as there is more legroom. The table seats are OK if you have a bay to yourself and can stretch out but that certainly wasn't possible on Friday.

The train was full and standing from Stirling. The guard asked for extra carriages at Perth but control said no. Not a surprising outcome but at least the staff on the ground are trying their best.

Queen Street is still a miserable building site but it is taking shape finally.
 

cf111

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Either way, the HSTs are better on the legroom!
Indeed they are. Sadly I've only ever managed to snag one refurbished set which I was impressed with, however it just makes it more annoying when a knackered 170 or 158 appears instead.
 

EE Andy b1

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I can't believe how badly this program is still going after all this time. I thought Kilmarnock refurbishment would have helped with the timeline. So there are is it 7 or 8 7Cities sets now refurbished but lucky to have 2 or 3 actually out in passenger service each day and not much more success with the classic sets.
So much was expected of these trains but passengers are having to put up with worsening conditions on units instead.

Don't get me wrong if Scotrail would have ordered a complete new train fleet they still would have been having big delays just like every other TOC that has or are introducing new train fleets.
 

hexagon789

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Indeed they are. Sadly I've only ever managed to snag one refurbished set which I was impressed with, however it just makes it more annoying when a knackered 170 or 158 appears instead.

I imagine it annoys the regulars as well. Having four coaches with good legroom on occasion but mostly three-cars with okay legroom or two-cars with appealing legroom. Not exactly endearing to the travelling public.
 

47271

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Speaking as a long suffering regular, legroom is the least of your worries when you expect an HST but a 170 turns up and it's full and standing. Maybe I should count myself lucky that I haven't been stuffed by a single 158 on a busy service this year.

The unpredictability of the service at the moment in many ways makes it worse than before we had the HSTs. There are Highland Main Line services that I wouldn't have touched two years ago that I was tempted to use this summer, thinking they would have capacity as HSTs, and found myself standing for two hours.

The one positive I suppose is that outright cancellations are few and far between right now. I've probably jinxed it by writing that...
 

158722

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Given all the on-going issues and discussion about are the HSTs worth it, there is one potentially major factor which has changed since the current franchsie was let - namely the plan by EMR to totally replace their 222 fleet in 2022/23. When the ScotRail franchise was being planned and eventually let, no doubt none of the bidders guessed that a fleet of 27 InterCity standard units would become available in such a relatively short time span. There are no obvious new homes for the 222s once replaced by IETs on the MML, assuming that XC will mop up the 18 West Coast 221s when they are displaced by new stock as well. So, 27x 222s, reformed into 5 and 6 car units from the current mix of 7, 5 and 4 car sets - oddly the same number of HST sets for ScotRail...
 

Highland37

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Surely the scrap yard is the natural home for them in 2022? Why soldier on with ancient stock?
 

Northhighland

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Why would Scotrail have another set of cast offs? The cost of HST can’t be simply forgotten about. Why would this be different? GWR and EMT are successfully using the same stock that Scotrail can’t get to work reliably.

why would introducing another variable be any different? Okay they are newer but why are they homeless? Will they be perfectly suited to HML?

Surely best to look and order something actually suited to the job that can work for 20 years.

in Short term HST has to be made to work. It works elsewhere.
 

gingertom

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I'm sure 222s could be made to work. They're younger than the HSTs so ought to last quite a few years. However it's yet another type staff have to learn and there's currently no maintenance facilities in Scotland for the type or even the Cummins engine. Yes this can be sorted, but at a cost and time, both scares resources. IMHO it would be a lot better to start the procurement process for replacement stock now. Either 802s or Midland spec AT300s. The length of the car body is up for debate but 4 engines for Drumochter and Slochd climbs should be high priority .
 

Brissle Girl

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Does anyone know what length of contract has been committed to for use of the HSTs, either by the franchise or possibly by the Scottish Govt? Unless they go nuclear, terminate (which would probably mean all work stopping now and potentially not having any HSTs), and see the leasing company in court, then any talk of plan B needs to bear in mind that there is a commitment to pay for use of the HSTs for several years.

And for those thinking that they’ll have an easy case when the ROSCO sues them for terminating, because of the quality of work, remember that GWR and XC don’t seem to have the same issues.
 

InOban

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Presumably the refurb costs are being borne by Angel trains and wabtec, to be recovered in leasing charges. On the one hand they will need to recover what they have spent, on the other, if it has been ridiculously expensive they might be happy to stop with the ones that they have done.
I'm sure of course that there are people on this thread who consider that no IC trains should have underfloor diesel engines.
 

Highland37

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I would have thought that the contract terms have been broken fairly clearly; Wabtec or ROSCO haven't provided the number agreed, to the agreed timetable and the ones they have agreed, don't work very well. They haven't got a leg to stand on. If it wasn't for the shortage of stock overall, they would have been binned ages ago.
 

Brissle Girl

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I would have thought that the contract terms have been broken fairly clearly; Wabtec or ROSCO haven't provided the number agreed, to the agreed timetable and the ones they have agreed, don't work very well. They haven't got a leg to stand on. If it wasn't for the shortage of stock overall, they would have been binned ages ago.
Yes, but in my experience, commercial contracts have extensive clauses setting out what happens when terms are breached, including remedies, dispute mechanisms, and arbitration procedures. In many, the redress is through damages, not cancellation of a multi-year contract. I suspect there has already been some renegotiation and financial amendments, either through negotiation, or less likely through the formal contractual process.

The timing of refurbished sets is without dispute, but in the meantime, there are unrefurbed sets which should be available to provide a service. We're all speculating why availability of both refurbed and unrefurbed sets is so woeful, but on the former, two other operators don't seem to have the same issue, so it's not as clear cut as you suggest where the fault lies, but my guess is it is shared.
 
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