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What more can be done for passengers needing assistance?

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pompeyfan

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To be fair half an hour to walk the train and do revenue is not enough, especially if it’s a full revenue check.

min regards to buses I was thinking an electric ramp that flips out when requested by a wheelchair user, perhaps with a radar key.

I would agree that it’s sometimes tricky to get hold of a destination station for whatever reason.
 
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I wonder whether changing trains at certain stations should be avoided because of their size and complexity or whether larger stations are better resourced with staff able to cope with the needs of disabled people than smaller stations - thoughts?
 

tomwills98

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Tighten up the system so that it's not filled with Doris requesting assistance to carry her handbag. (An actual real life example from multiple stations)

I've also had this, a lady couldn't carry her newly purchased 4x3ft paining but she could manage fine with her suitcase. Luggage assists are a thing as mentioned below where a person's ill health or disability means they actually require assistance. Maybe bringing back porters at larger stations would be of some use.
 

muz379

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I wonder whether changing trains at certain stations should be avoided because of their size and complexity or whether larger stations are better resourced with staff able to cope with the needs of disabled people than smaller stations - thoughts?
In my experience in the areas I work it is the larger stations which have the staff presence and infrastructure like lifts and escalators in place to best provide for passengers requiring assistance .

In areas with DOO operation it is probably changing at non staffed or smaller stations which brings most risk of being forgotten/not known about or not met and over-carried to passengers in wheelchairs .

Larger stations also obviously have the numbers of services and most convenient connections for most passengers including those requiring assistance
 

hooverboy

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ok so what about?:
1) powered adjustable ramp aboard train(can be fitted with radar/sensors to cope with variable platform level)...operated by nice big low level blue button if you need to exit , remotely closed by driver/guard as part of locking,interlocking and despatch)


2)for entry to train. Nice big blue button on platform to alert incoming/arrived train af the need for auto-ramp extension(easy with RFID and transponders).As part of the signalling/GPS the train should know where they are,where they are going,and what station is next at the very least.
I think maybe a verification code or app to the users mobile as a trigger would be useful to stop idiots on the platform permanently pressing it for laughs. Might be a bit tricky for those short of sight,so maybe a voice ID could also be incorporated at the help point/blue button.Both these technologies(voice ID/2 factor authentication) are now used in banking already,so this is potentially another use case.

if that fails, then ToC should have a core group of dedicated disability assistance personnel to ride out on specified trains when the user books the ticket and asks for disabled access.

3)definitely better levelling of at least one section of platform, and much better identification of the disabled section of the train. even the new trains only have a small bike icon and wheelchair icon at the side of the door, when what's needed is one really good big wheelchair one.
platforms also need a big hatched "hazard" area to identify to passengers to keep clear of ramp area until down/up.
The train really ought to have a vocal/audible/visible warning for the deployment of the ramp too if someone is using it.

much as we'd like to have open access to all and somebody invents levitating wheelchairs/mobility scooters then there's always going to be some amount of restriction on travel for those afflicted.
 
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Emmsie

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ok so what about?:
1) powered adjustable ramp aboard train(can be fitted with radar/sensors to cope with variable platform level)...operated by nice big low level blue button if you need to exit , remotely closed by driver/guard as part of locking,interlocking and despatch)


2)for entry to train. Nice big blue button on platform to alert incoming/arrived train af the need for auto-ramp extension(easy with RFID and transponders).As part of the signalling/GPS the train should know where they are,where they are going,and what station is next at the very least.
I think maybe a verification code or app to the users mobile as a trigger would be useful to stop idiots on the platform permanently pressing it for laughs. Might be a bit tricky for those short of sight,so maybe a voice ID could also be incorporated at the help point/blue button.Both these technologies(voice ID/2 factor authentication) are now used in banking already,so this is potentially another use case.

if that fails, then ToC should have a core group of dedicated disability assistance personnel to ride out on specified trains when the user books the ticket and asks for disabled access.

3)definitely better levelling of at least one section of platform, and much better identification of the disabled section of the train. even the new trains only have a small bike icon and wheelchair icon at the side of the door, when what's needed is one really good big wheelchair one.
platforms also need a big hatched "hazard" area to identify to passengers to keep clear of ramp area until down/up.
The train really ought to have a vocal/audible/visible warning for the deployment of the ramp too if someone is using it.

much as we'd like to have open access to all and somebody invents levitating wheelchairs/mobility scooters then there's always going to be some amount of restriction on travel for those afflicted.

Southern/GTR do have a roving team that was brought in when they started running the Thameslink services. It works well but relies on communication. If people prebook they can also give their mobile numbers so they can be contacted. Staff call ahead to confirm coach number and assistance required once the passenger is on the train. The only issue is that having worked at 3 different stations the procedures differ at each one and it should be the same at every station. One station is happy to give the roving team mobile number to regular travellers so they can call ahead to confrim, other stations don't allow this.
 

Robertj21a

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Lots of buses have the flip-out ramps, & it's the driver that operates them.

I know there's train services where there's only the driver, but on others there are staff around that could operate one ramp on one carriage.

All buses used on scheduled services now have to have ramps and wheelchair bays, by law.
 

CyrusWuff

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Back in September 2018, Rail Delivery Group announced a new Passenger Assist app for both station staff and passengers to use for both booking and tracking requests, but there hasn't been an update since then.

From a staff point of view, I find that assistance issues mainly fall into one of four categories:
  • Assistance has been booked to/from an unstaffed station and the operator taking the assistance booking has failed to capture a contact number for the passenger, preventing us from proactively offering an alternative (where appropriate).
  • The passenger only requires assistance at their interchange/destination station, so doesn't make themselves known to a member of staff at their origin, which delays getting to them on arrival as we don't know they're on the train.
  • Too many assists have been booked around the same time. Whilst it's not the passenger's problem, we only have a finite number of staff, and having multiple simultaneous assists means that someone's invariably going to have to wait longer than they should.
  • Assistance booking problems. These tend to be coupled with a failure to capture a contact number, which means we can't provide solutions ahead of time. For example: During engineering work recently, we had rail replacement buses operating from a station that is only fully accessible in one direction - which is a bit of an own goal on our part. Unfortunately, an assist was booked for someone travelling in the opposite direction, and no contact phone number was provided.
Having just created a test booking to replicate the issues in points 1 and 4, it appears to be an industry failing that the passenger assist system doesn't flag the problems at the time of booking, even though there's a field for it to do so.

In terms of staffing levels (at least for the stations I chose), the basic indication is provided by displaying the station category (and, for unstaffed stations, the letters UNS) as part of the booking process, but accessibility can generally only be found by clicking on the "Station Information" button as few TOCs utilise the bulletin option to provide the details. This isn't ideal for staff in a call centre environment as it affects call handling times. Again, that's not the passenger's problem, but it goes some way to explaining why such issues occur.
 
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Robertj21a

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Have the TOCs yet guaranteed that rail replacement buses/coaches contracted by them will, from 1/1/20, ensure that the disabled are catered for just like the able-bodied ?
 

paul1609

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To be fair half an hour to walk the train and do revenue is not enough, especially if it’s a full revenue check.

min regards to buses I was thinking an electric ramp that flips out when requested by a wheelchair user, perhaps with a radar key.

I would agree that it’s sometimes tricky to get hold of a destination station for whatever reason.
Perhaps the member of staff should be required to walk the train first to look for people requiring assistance, then carry out revenue on the way back? Compliance could be ensure with a RFID wand system.
 

Bantamzen

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Perhaps the member of staff should be required to walk the train first to look for people requiring assistance, then carry out revenue on the way back? Compliance could be ensure with a RFID wand system.

I can't imagine TOCs instructing crew to check for passengers requiring assistance before undertaking any revenue duties they may have. On many routes crews have precious little time to conduct all necessary revenue checks between stops, let alone effectively sweep the trains twice, once for possible assistance requiring passengers, and then to check tickets / sell fares etc. And what happens when crews can't check all the train due to overcrowding? In an ideal world there would be extra staff for this kind of thing, but we don't live in that ideal world.
 

Tio Terry

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A lot of well meaning and sensible suggestions in the comments above, but in some ways they miss the point.

The idea of the Equalities Act is exactly that, equality. So if you offer a turn up and go service to the able bodied then the same - equal - opportunity must be offered to Persons of Reduced Mobility (PRM). So there should be no need for any kind of advanced booking or special assistance. The infrastructure should be such that those PRM should be able to travel as easily as the able bodied. If that were the case then there would be no need for Apps on your phone or calls to distant stations to alert them.

This, of course, presents massive problems for the railways and their infrastructure that is often 100 or more years old and was never designed with this in mind. But the over riding principle must be to provide truly step free access rather than any form of “special arrangement” for PRM. All new railways (Crossrail central section) will fully meet the Equalities Act and any major rebuilding will also need to do the same. Of course, there will always be places that don’t meet the requirements - platform 17 at Clapham Junction springs to my mind - and the Station or Train Operators will need to decide how they will meet the requirements of the act. Where changes to the infrastructure are not practical then attention will need to turn to the train and how PRM access and egress from it. The PRM TSI already has requirements for on board lifts - if you think of the many European stations that have rail level platforms you will understand their need for PRM lifts on trains - so perhaps more consideration for this will become necessary in the future for the UK network.

The issues are not going to go away, only positive thinking and positive action will bring about the changes necessary.
 

paul1609

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I can't imagine TOCs instructing crew to check for passengers requiring assistance before undertaking any revenue duties they may have. On many routes crews have precious little time to conduct all necessary revenue checks between stops, let alone effectively sweep the trains twice, once for possible assistance requiring passengers, and then to check tickets / sell fares etc. And what happens when crews can't check all the train due to overcrowding? In an ideal world there would be extra staff for this kind of thing, but we don't live in that ideal world.
Possibly not, but a legal obligation and a system where if the member of staff hadn't clocked in each carriage within 30 mins prevents a despatch interlock and sends a GPS fine to TOC HQ is technically easily to achieve nowadays.
 

221129

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Possibly not, but a legal obligation and a system where if the member of staff hadn't clocked in each carriage within 30 mins prevents a despatch interlock and sends a GPS fine to TOC HQ is technically easily to achieve nowadays.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
 

Carlisle

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In areas with DOO operation it is probably changing at non staffed or smaller stations which brings most risk of being forgotten/not known about or not met
Although bizarrely you’ll find it’s mainly the non DOO TOCs that have actually cut their station staffing regimes since privatisation, as it’s traditionally been seen as a far easier way to save some money than attempting any restructuring or re deployment of the guards grade .
 
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virgintrain1

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Talking of DOO land, does anyone know how Thameslink's Mobile Assistance Trial went? E.g an agency man in a van!
Thameslink Mobile Assistance Trial.jpeg
 

muz379

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Although bizarrely you’ll find it’s mainly the non DOO TOCs that have actually cut their station staffing regimes since privatisation, as it’s traditionally been seen as a far easier way to save some money than attempting any restructuring or re deployment of the guards grade .
My point was not about levels of station staffing DOO vs non DOO , it was merely to say that if every train has a guard then there is less risk of a passenger in a wheelchair being over-carried . The person that is there to deploy the ramp at unstaffed (either permanently or due to staff shortages) is with the passenger on the train .

There is the remote risk of the guard forgetting about the person , as there is with station staff . But in my experience its not a common occurrence . What there is not the risk of is station A loading a passenger for station B , informing station B but in the meantime the staff member at station B has to leave , gets caught up in another task or is not present to assist the passenger alight for some other reason .
 

Llanigraham

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The idea of the Equalities Act is exactly that, equality. So if you offer a turn up and go service to the able bodied then the same - equal - opportunity must be offered to Persons of Reduced Mobility (PRM).

From experience of my wife running a shop in a building that was Listed you seem to have conveniently ignored 2 words from the legislation, namely "where possible".
 

Carlisle

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if every train has a guard then there is less risk of a passenger in a wheelchair being over-carried .
I’ve no idea of official statistics but going purely by media articles Ive noticed over the years about wheelchairs being over carried it appears pretty evenly spread between inter city, regional or suburban trains .
 
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jon0844

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Perhaps the member of staff should be required to walk the train first to look for people requiring assistance, then carry out revenue on the way back? Compliance could be ensure with a RFID wand system.

And how do you identify people requiring assistance? Make them wear an arm band or something? Do you walk through asking if anyone needs assistance, but then remember that someone might be hard of hearing? Does the elderly gentleman in seat 25A need help with his bags?

I don't think you've thought this through, despite being on hand to offer ways for train staff to be electronically fined.
 

jon0844

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I’ve no idea of official statistics but going purely by media articles Ive noticed over the years about wheelchairs being over carried it appears pretty evenly spread between inter city, regional or suburban trains .

One way to help reduce over carries is to ensure that wheelchair users (or indeed any user who needs assistance) are informed on using the call for aid button at a station, so the driver/crew can be informed. Of course this may incur a delay for the railway, but it deals with the issue and afterwards it is up to the railway to determine blame/delay attribution.
 

Bantamzen

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Possibly not, but a legal obligation and a system where if the member of staff hadn't clocked in each carriage within 30 mins prevents a despatch interlock and sends a GPS fine to TOC HQ is technically easily to achieve nowadays.

And how would that work on busy trains where crews cannot physically get through due to the number of passengers standing? At the end of the day, if the crew can't inspect the entire train (and I expect you'd need an inspection of the toilets too?), then this simply wouldn't work, apart from inflicting even more delays on a strained network.
 

muz379

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I’ve no idea of official statistics but going purely by media articles Ive noticed over the years about wheelchairs being over carried it appears pretty evenly spread between inter city, regional or suburban trains .
Yes but when a guard forgets about a passenger in a wheelchair resulting in that person being over-carried , there is someone directly responsible for that and the guard may well find themselves having a suitable conversation with management especially if they repeatedly do it . Passengers travelling in wheelchairs fairly often have someone accompanying them as well who can alert the guard if they do forget and try and dispatch the train .

In the case of DOO operated Toc's if someone does not turn up because of the numerous legitimate reasons I went into in an earlier post then nobody is directly responsible for that . And it seems plausible and logical that it is far more likely for that to occur .
 

shopbford

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I have some experience of this both in this country and abroad - mainly Spain. The worst I have come across was dispatching my wife to Manchester where she was forgotten about at Piccadilly and finally found at the Airport, even though they knew this had happened there was still no one to help her when she got to Piccadilly. I have found repeatedly when having asked for assistance you get it when you depart but very rarely when you arrive at your destination and they all play the "pass the buck" card.

Meanwhile get off the plane at Malaga Airport, cross the road, go down in the lift to the train platform. Train arrives, ramp automatically comes out, wife drives on with scooter and the reverse happens when we get off further along the line, no staff involved.
 

option

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From experience of my wife running a shop in a building that was Listed you seem to have conveniently ignored 2 words from the legislation, namely "where possible".

& if you've rebuilt platforms, or bought new trains, then you have the opportunity to make things better.
 

option

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A lot of well meaning and sensible suggestions in the comments above, but in some ways they miss the point.

The idea of the Equalities Act is exactly that, equality. So if you offer a turn up and go service to the able bodied then the same - equal - opportunity must be offered to Persons of Reduced Mobility (PRM). So there should be no need for any kind of advanced booking or special assistance. The infrastructure should be such that those PRM should be able to travel as easily as the able bodied. If that were the case then there would be no need for Apps on your phone or calls to distant stations to alert them.

This, of course, presents massive problems for the railways and their infrastructure that is often 100 or more years old and was never designed with this in mind. But the over riding principle must be to provide truly step free access rather than any form of “special arrangement” for PRM. All new railways (Crossrail central section) will fully meet the Equalities Act and any major rebuilding will also need to do the same. Of course, there will always be places that don’t meet the requirements - platform 17 at Clapham Junction springs to my mind - and the Station or Train Operators will need to decide how they will meet the requirements of the act. Where changes to the infrastructure are not practical then attention will need to turn to the train and how PRM access and egress from it. The PRM TSI already has requirements for on board lifts - if you think of the many European stations that have rail level platforms you will understand their need for PRM lifts on trains - so perhaps more consideration for this will become necessary in the future for the UK network.

The issues are not going to go away, only positive thinking and positive action will bring about the changes necessary.


but even infrastructure that's nowhere near that old isn't accessible.
eg Cross City stations were rebuilt in the late 1970s, new EMUs (& some platform works) in the early 90s, yet there's no level boarding anywhere.
 

option

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One way to help reduce over carries is to ensure that wheelchair users (or indeed any user who needs assistance) are informed on using the call for aid button at a station, so the driver/crew can be informed. Of course this may incur a delay for the railway, but it deals with the issue and afterwards it is up to the railway to determine blame/delay attribution.


There could be a 'next station' button in the wheelchair area.
Buses have buttons to request a stop, & have done for decades.
 

Wychwood93

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There could be a 'next station' button in the wheelchair area.
Buses have buttons to request a stop, & have done for decades.
Down my way the bus button for the disabled bit is blue and has a different tone when pressed - quite easy to have something similar in trains. Platform heights and stock designed to match them for a level access area have probably been done to death - on shorter routes, for example the C1 and C2 suburban lines from Málaga to Álora and Fuengirola, the class 464 Civia stock has one of the coaches with level access. Excellent! - but with less than 20 (roughly) stations involved, so it should be. From memory all the platforms are straight - which helps more than a little!
 

Energy

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We should stop new rolling stock not having level access, we can't get rid of all rolling stock overnight but as each train gets replaced we get closer to the target, we should also consider making existing stock have level access when it goes in for a mid life refresh, like the Pendolinos as they will be going in soon.

Stadler currently have a major advantage with level access, maybe a reason for the use on South Wales metro.
 

Bantamzen

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We should stop new rolling stock not having level access, we can't get rid of all rolling stock overnight but as each train gets replaced we get closer to the target, we should also consider making existing stock have level access when it goes in for a mid life refresh, like the Pendolinos as they will be going in soon.

Stadler currently have a major advantage with level access, maybe a reason for the use on South Wales metro.

Unfortunately having a railway network built largely long before such issues were considered, having uniform door levels will not alleviate the disparity of platform heights, curves and cambers.

A much simpler answer is to ensure that whenever assistance is booked & needed, that crews / station staff are aware & reminded at an appropriate time (i.e. on approach to the start & destination stations) that they have passengers that require their attention.
 
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