• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

option

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2017
Messages
636
alangla said:
Not to mention the lack of shore supplies meaning extra cold starts... Wonder how many engines have run out of hours because of that bit of early idiocy.
I’m still utterly bewildered as to why anyone in Abellio (a company that had never operated an HST) thought these were a good idea when every other franchise bid in the country seems to be based on new stock.
Click to expand...

Would it have been a big enough order for anyone to be interested in building it at a reasonable price?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

O

option

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2017
Messages
636
158722 said:
Given all the on-going issues and discussion about are the HSTs worth it, there is one potentially major factor which has changed since the current franchsie was let - namely the plan by EMR to totally replace their 222 fleet in 2022/23. When the ScotRail franchise was being planned and eventually let, no doubt none of the bidders guessed that a fleet of 27 InterCity standard units would become available in such a relatively short time span. There are no obvious new homes for the 222s once replaced by IETs on the MML, assuming that XC will mop up the 18 West Coast 221s when they are displaced by new stock as well. So, 27x 222s, reformed into 5 and 6 car units from the current mix of 7, 5 and 4 car sets - oddly the same number of HST sets for ScotRail...
Click to expand...


The 222s are much more likely to go to XC, along with the 221s from West Coast, meaning they can scrap the HSTs.
 
M

MacCookie

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2010
Messages
219
Highland37 said:
I was in Inverness Station on Tuesday and pleasantly surprised to see a refurb HST at Platform 3. The board said "on time" and due to depart at 1444. At 1448 it was still there when I saw it.
Click to expand...

There’s no 14:44 departure from Inverness. There was a 14:48 to Glasgow, but that should have been a 170.

There was a refurbished HST on the 15:54 from Inverness to Edinburgh on Tuesday. The 08:34 from Edinburgh to Inverness was also a refurbished HST that day.
 
hexagon789

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,778
Location
Glasgow
158722 said:
Given all the on-going issues and discussion about are the HSTs worth it, there is one potentially major factor which has changed since the current franchsie was let - namely the plan by EMR to totally replace their 222 fleet in 2022/23. When the ScotRail franchise was being planned and eventually let, no doubt none of the bidders guessed that a fleet of 27 InterCity standard units would become available in such a relatively short time span. There are no obvious new homes for the 222s once replaced by IETs on the MML, assuming that XC will mop up the 18 West Coast 221s when they are displaced by new stock as well. So, 27x 222s, reformed into 5 and 6 car units from the current mix of 7, 5 and 4 car sets - oddly the same number of HST sets for ScotRail...
Click to expand...

I suggested this a few months ago in the thread about where the 222s would go. Nevertheless, XC is far more likely rather than ScotRail.

There's also the issue of how to configure the sets, all the reforming would take time.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves, we'll have to see how the HST programme progresses through next year.
 
O

option

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2017
Messages
636
Brissle Girl said:
Yes, but in my experience, commercial contracts have extensive clauses setting out what happens when terms are breached, including remedies, dispute mechanisms, and arbitration procedures. In many, the redress is through damages, not cancellation of a multi-year contract. I suspect there has already been some renegotiation and financial amendments, either through negotiation, or less likely through the formal contractual process.

The timing of refurbished sets is without dispute, but in the meantime, there are unrefurbed sets which should be available to provide a service. We're all speculating why availability of both refurbed and unrefurbed sets is so woeful, but on the former, two other operators don't seem to have the same issue, so it's not as clear cut as you suggest where the fault lies, but my guess is it is shared.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't be surprised if the unrefurbed sets are being provided at no cost
 
43096

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,270
Highland37 said:
I would have thought that the contract terms have been broken fairly clearly; Wabtec or ROSCO haven't provided the number agreed, to the agreed timetable and the ones they have agreed, don't work very well. They haven't got a leg to stand on. If it wasn't for the shortage of stock overall, they would have been binned ages ago.
Click to expand...
You’ve seen the contract, then, have you?
 
47271

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
Scrapheap Challenge at Haymarket Depot again today, I swear that there's more and more piling up there. I don't know how they manage to do any maintenance on anything else, the place is absolutely rammed with HSTs going nowhere.
 
433N

433N

Guest
Joined
20 Jun 2017
Messages
752
47271 said:
Scrapheap Challenge at Haymarket Depot again today, I swear that there's more and more piling up there. I don't know how they manage to do any maintenance on anything else, the place is absolutely rammed with HSTs going nowhere.
Click to expand...

Of the 5 alleged HST diagrams I saw today, 2 were HSTs - but I'm not sure if the cancellations from Inverness were due to weather or crap trains.

ON EDIT : I did see the set with 43131 and 134 which is commonly out and about, come from Haymarket Depot into Platform 0 at Haymarket then back to depot and thence was broken up by the time I came out of Ed.
 
158722

158722

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
831
option said:
The 222s are much more likely to go to XC, along with the 221s from West Coast, meaning they can scrap the HSTs.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so sure - the 222s are currently not compatible to run in multi with the 220/221s, meaning one or other fleet will need modifications or complicated and inefficient diagramming will be needed to manage two separate fleets. Also the 20x WC 221s amount to 90 vehicles - a considerable uplift in capacity from the 40 HST coaches, despite the rather low density seating of the Voyagers. The 222 fleet consists of 164 vehicles (if I counted correctly!) and there is no way the DfT is going to give XC that level of capacity on top of the 221s, even with the HSTs dropping out.
 
158722

158722

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
831
option said:
The 222s are much more likely to go to XC, along with the 221s from West Coast, meaning they can scrap the HSTs.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so sure - the 222s are currently not compatible to run in multi with the 220/221s, meaning one or other fleet will need modifications or complicated and inefficient diagramming will be needed to manage two separate fleets. Also the 20x WC 221s amount to 90 vehicles - a considerable uplift in capacity from the 40 HST coaches, despite the rather low density seating of the Voyagers. The 222 fleet consists of 164 vehicles (if I counted correctly!) and there is no way the DfT is going to give XC that level of capacity on top of the 221s, even with the HSTs dropping out.
 
A

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
I’ve often thought Voyager type vehicles would be perfect for Inter7City type services. Powerful, reliable, less wasted platform space and can be doubled up for very busy services or events.
 
GrimShady

GrimShady

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2016
Messages
1,740
Please no more sodding DMUs. The whole point in going over to HST operation was to get rid of them.
 
J

jamieintercity

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2012
Messages
706
There is an STP haymarket to Ely move on Thursday, presumably a pair of power cars taking a set of coaches to store then going to Doncaster to await another set being ready to come back up north
 
W

weatherman222

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2018
Messages
11
433N said:
Of the 5 alleged HST diagrams I saw today, 2 were HSTs - but I'm not sure if the cancellations from Inverness were due to weather or crap trains.

ON EDIT : I did see the set with 43131 and 134 which is commonly out and about, come from Haymarket Depot into Platform 0 at Haymarket then back to depot and thence was broken up by the time I came out of Ed.
Click to expand...

Journeycheck as of 22:15 reported two en route Aberdeen to Edinburgh trains and one Glasgow to Aberdeen train all as 3 coaches instead of 4, due to a train fault.
 
CEN60

CEN60

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
267
47271 said:
Scrapheap Challenge at Haymarket Depot again today, I swear that there's more and more piling up there. I don't know how they manage to do any maintenance on anything else, the place is absolutely rammed with HSTs going nowhere.
Click to expand...

It'll get worse too - rumours abound that the "new" yard planned in Perth has been scrapped!
 
I

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,216
Given the decline in oil-related employment in Aberdeen, why don't they use the available skilled workforce to develop a maintenance base there?
 
N

Northhighland

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2016
Messages
606
InOban said:
Given the decline in oil-related employment in Aberdeen, why don't they use the available skilled workforce to develop a maintenance base there?
Click to expand...

Oil and gas workers are still working. Not huge amounts of them unemployed. Skilled labour is in short supply all over Scotland.

Thing for me is the teams that maintained the 158/170’s did a really good job. The reliability was excellent. No reason why they can’t do as good as GWR or EMT if they are supported properly.

Something just isn’t right here. They will be trying some support must be missing.
 
A

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Brissle Girl said:
Does anyone know what length of contract has been committed to for use of the HSTs, either by the franchise or possibly by the Scottish Govt? Unless they go nuclear, terminate (which would probably mean all work stopping now and potentially not having any HSTs), and see the leasing company in court, then any talk of plan B needs to bear in mind that there is a commitment to pay for use of the HSTs for several years.

And for those thinking that they’ll have an easy case when the ROSCO sues them for terminating, because of the quality of work, remember that GWR and XC don’t seem to have the same issues.
Click to expand...

The majority of Scotrail stock has a lease end date of 31/3/2025, which is the end of the current franchise (if 3 year extension agreed by both parties). HST lease dates are not shown in the Franchise agreement but I'd expect it to be the same date.
 
43096

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,270
Altnabreac said:
The majority of Scotrail stock has a lease end date of 31/3/2025, which is the end of the current franchise (if 3 year extension agreed by both parties). HST lease dates are not shown in the Franchise agreement but I'd expect it to be the same date.
Click to expand...
I am under the impression that the HST sets are subject to a Section 54 agreement that guarantees their use through to 2027 or thereabouts.
 
A

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
43096 said:
I am under the impression that the HST sets are subject to a Section 54 agreement that guarantees their use through to 2027 or thereabouts.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, that sounds reasonable. Any new franchise bidder would need a couple of years to procure new I7C stock anyway so it wouldn't realistically restrict bidders from proposing alternatives.
 
43096

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,270
Altnabreac said:
Makes sense, that sounds reasonable. Any new franchise bidder would need a couple of years to procure new I7C stock anyway so it wouldn't realistically restrict bidders from proposing alternatives.
Click to expand...
Indeed, and it also reduces the cost per year to ScotRail (whoever is running it) as Angel have a guaranteed revenue so can write-off the overhaul/refurb costs over a longer timeframe.
 
D

DannyMich2018

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2018
Messages
735
What's happened to the planned delivery of set refurb 8? This is getting only worse, THREE months since the last delivery-apparently delays due to faults, ironically GWR have recently received their 8th refurb set so only 3 more to go for them so what is going on? and GWR's sets and Cross Country's seem to work ok so why Scotfails aren't? Yes Wabtec aren't perfect but why can't Scotfail get the sets delivered so far running well?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top