The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

Xenophon PCDGS · 10 Nov 2019

telstarbox said:
Can you explain that in more detail please?

Certainly, it is in the (mis)understanding of the word "democratic", be that deliberate or not.

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thenorthern · 10 Nov 2019

As the election campaign progresses opinion polls are suggesting that voters are going back to the two main parties and despite the hype about Brexit Party, Liberal Democrats, Green Party and others it seems in England and Wales the two main parties will again hold the vast majority of the seats.

Bevan Price · 10 Nov 2019

bramling said:
All the recent talk of deals between Labour and the SNP must be good for the Conservatives - it was widely suggested that this is partly what did it for Miliband in 2015.

No I think it was being too "far left" that made Miliband unelectable - as happened to Michael Foot in the 1980s, and as will probably happen to Labour this year.

Indeed, I fear we may never again get a Labour government with a clear majority, unless some future leader can curb the control exerted by Militant Mark 2 (a.k.a. Momentum). It is probably more likely that we will need to wait for years until a new "centre-left" party emerges and can start attracting a lot of votes.

DynamicSpirit · 11 Nov 2019

thenorthern said:
As the election campaign progresses opinion polls are suggesting that voters are going back to the two main parties and despite the hype about Brexit Party, Liberal Democrats, Green Party and others it seems in England and Wales the two main parties will again hold the vast majority of the seats.

That's actually what I'd expect if voters start voting tactically: On the right/Brexit side, people in just about every constituency will figure that the Tories are better placed to win, while on the Remain/centre/left side, there are many more constituencies where Labour is the main challenger to the Tories than there are where the LibDems/PC/SNP are the main challenger to the Tories, so the majority of pro-Remain tactical votes will head towards Labour.

DynamicSpirit · 11 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
If you were to ask them that question, you most probably would receive a reassurance from their spokesperson that their was a democratic body of opinion ..... as was also once claimed by the Deutsche Demokratische Republik.

telstarbox said:
Can you explain that in more detail please?

The only translation to Xenophon's remarks I can think of that makes any sense would run something like 'Instead of making any sensible arguments against Momentum/Labour, I've decided to make up some totally ridiculous, untrue, and scurrilous, comparisons with the former East German Communist regime, in the hope that if I keep throwing this kind of mud, some of it will stick.' :frown:

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
The only translation to Xenophon's remarks I can think of that makes any sense would run something like 'Instead of making any sensible arguments against Momentum/Labour, I've decided to make up some totally ridiculous, untrue, and scurrilous, comparisons with the former East German Communist regime, in the hope that if I keep throwing this kind of mud, some of it will stick.'

Thank you for taking the roles of prosecution counsel, judge and jury. It is always amusing to read comments that someone decides, in their mind, are not what was actually stated but are their own particular version of the truth....then goes on to make judgements of their own fertile imaginary version of their own lack of understanding.

I think I am, at the age of 74, better versed than you to fully understand what life was actually like under the Honecker regime in particular in the former state of East Germany.

telstarbox · 11 Nov 2019

Paul, you have a first class degree in Mathematics, and I can't believe someone of your intelligence would be so simple as to conflate a repressive puppet government controlled by the Soviet Union with a voluntary mass membership organisation in the UK in 2019.

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Nov 2019

telstarbox said:
Paul, you have a first class degree in Mathematics, and I can't believe someone of your intelligence would be so simple as to conflate a repressive puppet government controlled by the Soviet Union with a voluntary mass membership organisation in the UK in 2019.

My point did not concern the voluntary mass membership but that of the top inner-core of Momentum, who set their own extreme left-wing political agenda. One could draw a comparison in British terms to the top inner-core of the Liverpool based Militant organisation in which Derek Hatton was a prime mover quite some years ago.

SteveP29 · 11 Nov 2019

Gooner18 said:
However I can’t vote for Corbyn and his dictatorship momentum

I suggest you go and try a few months in an actual dictatorship, you might be enlightened a bit as to how well we actually do have it in this country

SteveP29 · 11 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
I think I am, at the age of 74, better versed than you to fully understand what life was actually like under the Honecker regime in particular in the former state of East Germany.

But as you're fairly keen to espouse regularly, you came from Poland and you've lived most of your life in the UK, how does that qualify you to 'understand what life was like under Honecker'?

DynamicSpirit · 11 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Thank you for taking the roles of prosecution counsel, judge and jury. It is always amusing to read comments that someone decides, in their mind, are not what was actually stated but are their own particular version of the truth....then goes on to make judgements of their own fertile imaginary version of their own lack of understanding.

I think I am, at the age of 74, better versed than you to fully understand what life was actually like under the Honecker regime in particular in the former state of East Germany.

Maybe you do have a better understanding of life in Germany, although I would say I have studied enough history to have a reasonable idea of what the Communist regime there was about. But I see nothing in your posts that gives any reason to believe you have any significant understanding of Momentum.

You can find Momentum's website here. I invite you to browse it, and then tell me where it says that they plan to build a wall to stop people leaving the country and shoot people trying to cross it. Or maybe you'd like to find where their policy is about locking up all dissidents, and turning the UK into a puppet state. Or you might want to look up their plans for mass centralised control of the media and of peoples' lives, backed up by huge a network of spies and informants. (I'll give you a clue: You won't find those policies because they are not there because that is not what Momentum are about).

There is much you can legitimately criticise Momentum about: I would cite a lack of understanding of how the market economy works, and a tendency to oversimplify the causes of many problems. But similar to East Germany they are not, and your suggestion that they are is simply an untrue smear.

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Nov 2019

SteveP29 said:
But as you're fairly keen to espouse regularly, you came from Poland and you've lived most of your life in the UK, how does that qualify you to 'understand what life was like under Honecker'?

I suppose that there was much of this revealed when, after the fall of the regime, the files of the Stasi were discovered which were very detailed as one would expect such an organisation to compile.

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Maybe you do have a better understanding of life in Germany, although I would say I have studied enough history to have a reasonable idea of what the Communist regime there was about. But I see nothing in your posts that gives any reason to believe you have any significant understanding of Momentum. There is much you can legitimately criticise Momentum about: I would cite a lack of understanding of how the market economy works, and a tendency to oversimplify the causes of many problems. But similar to East Germany they are not, and your suggestion that they are is simply an untrue smear.

Again, you appear to overlook the fact that my criticism is specifically levelled against the extreme left-wing Socialist agenda espoused by the top echelons of Momentum, not what they choose to state in their website, as on that, they only wish to portray a more acceptable view to the electorate at large. I note that Corbyn as party leader has not distanced himself from Momentum, in the same way as Kinnock did at the 1985 conference against Militant. I believe his speech is still available to watch on YouTube.

DarloRich · 11 Nov 2019

I notice the Brexit company are indicating they not stand candidates in the 317 seats won by the Conservatives at the 2017 general election.

Butts · 11 Nov 2019

DarloRich said:
I notice the Brexit company are indicating they not stand candidates in the 317 seats won by the Conservatives at the 2017 general election.

That could potentially be a game changer !!!

Are they short of cash or has a back door deal been done ?

DarloRich · 11 Nov 2019

Butts said:
That could potentially be a game changer !!!

Are they short of cash or has a back door deal been done ?

I am sure Private Eye will tell me

HSTEd · 11 Nov 2019

The Brexit Party is another outlet for people to vote Tory who can't bring themselves to vote Tory.
Like the Liberal Democrats, but aimed at a different target market.

NoMorePacers · 11 Nov 2019

DarloRich said:
I notice the Brexit company are indicating they not stand candidates in the 317 seats won by the Conservatives at the 2017 general election.

It’s surely a mere coincidence however that most of the Brexit Party consists of ex-Tories.

Right? :lol:

Ianno87 · 11 Nov 2019

DarloRich said:
I notice the Brexit company are indicating they not stand candidates in the 317 seats won by the Conservatives at the 2017 general election.

I don't quite follow the logic here. Surely, that implies still standing against the Tories in marginal seats that were marginally lost by the Tories? Which then risks splitting the pro-Brexit vote and failing to regain the marginal seats, defeating the point?

deltic · 11 Nov 2019

Butts said:
They only joined the EU because the UK did. We are their biggest trading parner and most of their exports are moved through British Ports.

USA is by far Ireland’s biggest export market- twice the size of the UK and Belgium is only just behind

Tetchytyke · 11 Nov 2019

I see the BBC are bringing their own special brand of impartiality to the table today. Boris Johnson somehow managed to lay his wreath at the Cenotaph upside down, so due to a "production error" BBC Breakfast used a clip of him from 2016 instead.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...s-wreath-blunder-production-mistake-1-6368809

The BBC has apologised after using old footage of Boris Johnson laying a wreath on Remembrance Sunday rather than the most recent footage of him laying one upside down.

Meanwhile, they're still not reporting on *that* report into Russian interference being blocked by Johnson either. Coincidentally, Boris is funded by half of the FSB.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/bor...-naming-tory-donors-linked-to-kremlin-2019-11

Sources who have seen the report told the Times they believe the report has been suppressed because it highlights extensive connections between Conservative donors and Russia's Federal Security Bureau.

But remember, Corbyn Hates Britain.

thenorthern · 11 Nov 2019

Brexit Party's announcement today is an interesting development although I don't think the Brexit Party will win any seats.

Tetchytyke · 11 Nov 2019

JamesT said:
That’s the technical HMRC definition, the everyday one from say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance is that anything that is a legal way to reduce your tax liability is tax avoidance.

So we're ignoring HMRC's legal distinction and going off Wikipedia now? Christ on a bike.

JamesT said:
HMRC are keen on blurring the simple line between avoidance is legal, evasion is not in order to go after people on the fringes

The line between what is legal and what is not is many things, but it is certainly not "simple".

Just because a tax planner asserts something to be legal doesn't mean it actually is. Just ask Jimmy Carr.

Howardh said:
So if I put all my savings into an ISA am I avoiding paying tax on them or not?

This is getting rather tiresome. Utilising a Government-created tax relief is not "tax avoidance", it is using a tax relief that you are legally allowed to use for the purpose which you're legally allowed to use it. See also pensions, inheritance allowances, tax-free personal allowances and the annual CGT allowance.

furnessvale · 11 Nov 2019

thenorthern said:
Brexit Party's announcement today is an interesting development although I don't think the Brexit Party will win any seats.

Was that ever the serious question. Surely it was a case of splitting the vote and letting others win, as LibDem, PC and Green knew last week.

Butts · 11 Nov 2019

deltic said:
USA is by far Ireland’s biggest export market- twice the size of the UK and Belgium is only just behind

Yes, sorry I was thinking of imports where Ireland imports more from the UK than anyone else.
Belgium is a strange oddity - I wonder what goods are exported to there from Ireland.

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Nov 2019

Tetchytyke said:
Christ on a bike.

What particular model did he favour?

Tetchytyke · 11 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
What particular model did he favour?

I reckon he always liked a Chopper.

deltic · 11 Nov 2019

Butts said:
Yes, sorry I was thinking of imports where Ireland imports more from the UK than anyone else.
Belgium is a strange oddity - I wonder what goods are exported to there from Ireland.

Organic chemicals and pharmaceutical products account for 90% of exports to Belgium

DynamicSpirit · 11 Nov 2019

Tetchytyke said:
Christ on a bike.

Tetchytyke said:
I reckon he always liked a Chopper.

I thought He usually preferred a rally

GusB · 11 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
What particular model did he favour?

Tetchytyke said:
I reckon he always liked a Chopper.

DynamicSpirit said:
I thought He usually preferred a rally

They'd surely be in favour of a Strika

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