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Fare Evasion Zone 1-8 Southeastern Railways

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MikeWh

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Some people here think that they can't figure out about the last year journeys with touching in and out but I'm pretty sure then can? Or am I wrong?
Oyster journey history is only kept for 8 weeks. After that time it is anonymised so they still have statistics on passenger flows but no detail as to who the passengers are.
 
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gray1404

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My partner was stopped by South Eatern not the tfl. Not sure if that makes any difference? Thank you

Good. South Eastern are more open to out of Court settlements then Transport for London. TfL can be very difficult to arrange out of course settlements with and are more likely to go to Court. Good news he was stopped by South Eastern. I am not saying they won't go to Court but there is a higher chance they may settle out of Court.
 

Haywain

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Oyster journey history is only kept for 8 weeks. After that time it is anonymised so they still have statistics on passenger flows but no detail as to who the passengers are.
They will also be able to see the a number of tickets against that card though.
 

najaB

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This oyster was never under my name but they can still see the travel history back to Jan 2018? Anyway I guess they can easily find out who used he oyster if they want to?
They won't be able to tell anything directly from the Oyster records, but that doesn't preclude them asking "Is this the only time this card has been misused like this?" or similar. My earlier advice stands: if you're planning to use the strategy of strictly interpreting and answering the questions (to avoid self-incrimination) then please get professional legal assistance.

It's very easy to say something that can later show that you've been less than truthful, at which point any goodwill goes straight out of the window.
 

Surreytraveller

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They will also be able to see the a number of tickets against that card though.
Oyster history is anonymous. This means that after 8 weeks data cannot be linked.
If the data can be linked, then it is not anonymous.
So either they are lying when they are telling people that data is anonymised, or they are lying if you've heard data can be linked
 

Surreytraveller

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I could be wrong, but I read @Haywain's post as referring to the card used to purchase the tickets.
Maybe! I wonder if there's a way they keep possibly suspicious-looking data for future use, though? Such as Oyster Cards which are only ever used for tapping in at one end, and not the other? I suspect not, as they would have to state any such storage of data in the privacy policy
 

some bloke

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One factor which may apply:
TfL said:
information is also stored on the Oyster card itself; this comprises the last eight journeys and related charges, up to three season ticket products, (generally the most recent three tickets, including future dated), and the last two incomplete journeys, if any. If you don't use your Oyster card very often, the data stored on the card may be older than eight weeks.
...
Details of debit or credit cards used to get a card (ie pay the deposit) and add pay as you go credit and/or a season ticket are retained for a maximum of 18 months.
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/privacy-and-cookies/oyster-card

Secondly, in some ways exactly what was communicated, omitted or perceived between your husband and staff about earlier journeys could be important.
It may not be easy for your husband to know how the staff member perceived the issue of who used the card earlier. Did they just say something like "it looks as though similar journeys were made last year" or did they take anything he said or did as indicating it was him? Even if it doesn't matter legally, it may be a factor in whether you write to them as above.

Thirdly, this is a public forum which train company staff are known to read.

I think it's a very risky strategy being proposed. TfL are likely to ask questions about how long this has been going on, and depending on how the question is phrased it would be very easy to tell a lie through omission.
Yes, and what has already been communicated, or thought to have been, may also be relevant.
 

hwl

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Southeastern may have gating usage data not covered by the 8 week Tfl anonymisation?
 

RJ

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More than likely the RPIs know that a percentage of people like to sing like canaries to incriminate themselves and admit to additional offences there would otherwise be no record of. The more evidence, the better the chance of a result for the company, but I don't understand why people make the decision to say more than the barest minimum they are legally required to.

I really wouldn't overestimate the information that Southeastern has access to.

However it is true that limited data is stored locally on Oyster cards. If you find an Oyster you haven't used for 10 years and check the journey history on machine on a London Underground machine, it will show the last trips made and products loaded.
 
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Stigy

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Hi I received a letter to go to court regarding the fare evasion. I will say I am guilty (as I am). My question is: Does it mean that I will 100% get the criminal record and for how long? Thank you all.
Hi, it depends on the charge as to whether you’ll receive a criminal record as such (although criminal matters, Railway Byelaws won’t necessarily mean a criminal record in the same way offences contrary to the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 will).

You will obviously be convicted regardless, as you’re pleading guilty. Is it definitely going to court, or has the TOC just asked you for your version of events?
 

47421

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Please let us know:

- journey you were making (from, to, time, date)
- what ticket you had if any
- where you were asked for a ticket and by who
- who has written to you - prosecutions department of which train co?
- what precise offence they allege you have committed

with some more info we can better advise what is likely to happen and if there is any possibility of avoiding prosecution
 

47421

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Please confirm who has written to you - SouthEastern Prosecutions Dept? And what precise offence they say you have committed
 

Darandio

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Please let us know:

- journey you were making (from, to, time, date)
- what ticket you had if any
- where you were asked for a ticket and by who
- who has written to you - prosecutions department of which train co?
- what precise offence they allege you have committed

with some more info we can better advise what is likely to happen and if there is any possibility of avoiding prosecution

Did you read any of the thread prior to the posts today?
 

island

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Hi I received a letter to go to court regarding the fare evasion. I will say I am guilty (as I am). My question is: Does it mean that I will 100% get the criminal record and for how long? Thank you all.
What offence are you charged with?

Is it “travelling on a train without having paid your fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof”?
Or “Entering a train without having with you a valid ticket?”
Or something else?
 

jumble

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My partner was stopped by South Eatern not the tfl. Not sure if that makes any difference? Thank you


That's interesting as I thought they can actually see that when the Oyster was touched in zone 1 to enter the station there was no touching out anywhere after that. I guess they would just assume that there was something going on there? Thank you.


Thank you for your advice let's see the letter first once it arrives so I will be able to finure out what to do next. Definitely hiring a solicitor.


Some people here think that they can't figure out about the last year journeys with touching in and out but I'm pretty sure then can? Or am I wrong?
The answer to this is confirmed in the Fare Evasion Program on CH5 on Mondays
TFL claim that they anonomyse all Data after 8 weeks bit then produce evidence to fare dodgers going back 5 years
Posters on here have been repeating the policy in good faith but have been misled as the policy is clearly untrue.
It had always stretched my belief that if there was a murder on the tube TFL would have said 10 weeks later it is too late....
 

najaB

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TFL claim that they anonomyse all Data after 8 weeks bit then produce evidence to fare dodgers going back 5 years
Posters on here have been repeating the policy in good faith but have been misled as the policy is clearly untrue.
The two statements are not mutually exclusive. What it sounds like to me is that after eight weeks the data that is operationally used is anonymous, and access to the detailed data is strictly controlled.
 

MikeWh

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The answer to this is confirmed in the Fare Evasion Program on CH5 on Mondays
TFL claim that they anonomyse all Data after 8 weeks bit then produce evidence to fare dodgers going back 5 years
Posters on here have been repeating the policy in good faith but have been misled as the policy is clearly untrue.
They anonymise all PAYG data after 8 weeks. They do not discard records of travelcards purchased and the Oyster cards they are stored on.
It had always stretched my belief that if there was a murder on the tube TFL would have said 10 weeks later it is too late....
It would stretch my belief that any relevant data for a murder investigation would not be requested immediately.
The two statements are not mutually exclusive. What it sounds like to me is that after eight weeks the data that is operationally used is anonymous, and access to the detailed data is strictly controlled.
Of course you could be right, but when someone asks for the last years data so they can fill in an expense form, I'd see an opportunity for an admin charge to access the data if it really existed.
 

najaB

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Of course you could be right, but when someone asks for the last years data so they can fill in an expense form, I'd see an opportunity for an admin charge to access the data if it really existed.
True. Though since it's not "detection or prevention of crime" then there are potentially all sorts of data protection issues.
 

MikeWh

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True. Though since it's not "detection or prevention of crime" then there are potentially all sorts of data protection issues.
Only if they can't be sure who you are. If you are holding the card, know the security question, can give a rough estimate of when a particular journey might have been made (not hard if this is for expenses), then I don't see the problem.


I'm sure you'll try and think of another obstacle though....
 

jumble

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They anonymise all PAYG data after 8 weeks. They do not discard records of travelcards purchased and the Oyster cards they are stored on.
You clearly are correct and nobody doubts that this is the case

However this is not what TFL state is their policy regarding retaining journeys after 8 weeks on travelcards which is where I see the issue
( note they say individual journeys made using your oyster card. No qualification of PAYG or otherwise)


https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/privacy-and-cookies/oyster-card

Choosing not to provide personal information
You can use your Oyster card to pay as you go at any time without providing your personal information to TfL. You can also add weekly and monthly season tickets to your Oyster card without needing to register your card or create an online account.

If you choose not to provide personal information to us, you will not be able to open an online account or get a refund if your card is lost or stolen. It may also delay or prevent us from offering other services to you such as the resolution of complaints or concerns.
TfL will retain personal information in line with its data retention policies. This means that we will not hold information for longer than is necessary for the purposes we obtained it for.

We retain data about the individual journeys made using your Oyster card for eight weeks after the card is used. After eight weeks, the journey data in the ticketing system is disassociated from your card (ie pseudonymised). This eight-week period is considered reasonable to enable customers to verify or make enquiries concerning their journeys (for example, for refund purposes).

Some journey information is also stored on the Oyster card itself; this comprises the last eight journeys and related charges, up to three season ticket products, (generally the most recent three tickets, including future dated), and the last two incomplete journeys, if any. If you don't use your Oyster card very often, the data stored on the card may be older than eight weeks.
 

MikeWh

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However this is not what TFL state is their policy regarding retaining journeys after 8 weeks on travelcards which is where I see the issue
( note they say individual journeys made using your oyster card. No qualification of PAYG or otherwise)
The fraud being discussed is living in zone 8 and only using a travelcard for zones 1-2. They may not need the data of individual journeys from a year ago once the discussion has moved on to approximating the size of the fraud. It would be entirely relevant for TfL to keep accounting records of travelcards sold and who to, or what card if the card was unregistered. They probably also keep details of topups for longer than 8 weeks too.

As a comparison, for contactless PAYG all journey and payment history is kept for a year because it is the justification for making specific charges on your bank account.
 
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