InterCity 225 Pullman Formation

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

Hi there!

Does anyone know the full formation of the BR Pullman sets? (e.g TFO, TSO etc)

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hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Hi there!

Does anyone know the full formation of the BR Pullman sets? (e.g TFO, TSO etc)

It changed over time:

Originally there were two 'Super' Pullman sets of:

91+TOE+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+SV+PO+DVT

At the time the standard sets were only 8-car:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+DVT

As more Mk4s entered service the standard sets were lengthened to 9-car by the addition of a TO:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+DVT

The 'Super' Pullman were disbanded and instead six Pullman sets were made up. These were 9-car like the standard sets but with an extra PO and one less TO:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+PO+DVT

The sets remained like this until the Mallard refurbishment under GNER when the SV was flipped and converted to standard class and all sets given 3 PO giving:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+POP+POD+PO+DVT

When the sets first entered service there were a number of alterate temporary formations which lasted until more vehicles became available from about 1990.

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
It changed over time:

Originally there were two 'Super' Pullman sets of:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+SV+PO+PO+DVT

At the time the standard sets were only 8-car:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+DVT

As more Mk4s entered service the standard sets were lengthened to 9-car by the addition of a TO:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+DVT

The 'Super' Pullman were disbanded and instead six Pullman sets were made up. These were 9-car like the standard sets but with an extra PO and one less TO:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+PO+PO+PO+DVT

The sets remained like this until the Mallard refurbishment under GNER when the SV was flipped and converted to standard class and all sets given 3 PO giving:

91+TOE+TO+TO+TO+TOD+SV+POP+POD+PO+DVT

When the sets first entered service there were a number of alterate temporary formations which lasted until more vehicles became available from about 1990.

Thanks, exactly what i was looking for!

I thought the SVO had first class seating however up until 2011 when EC converted them to standard and disbanded the dining car concept.

gimmea50anyday · 11 Nov 2019

It was a GNER decision. In the process standardising the mk4 fleet so they were all the same formation

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Thanks, exactly what i was looking for!

I thought the SVO had first class seating however up until 2011 when EC converted them to standard and disbanded the dining car concept.

No, the SV were converted under GNER's 'Mallard' refurbishment programme, I believe the HSTs were lengthened to their current 2+9 at the same time

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
It was a GNER decision. In the process standardising the mk4 fleet so they were all the same formation

Hmmm, i was under the impression that the SVOs remained first class seated (though not treated as 1st class) until 2011. Am i misunderstanding something here?

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Hmmm, i was under the impression that the SVs remained first class seated (though not treated as 1st class) until 2011. Am i misunderstanding something here?

The SVs were rotated 180 degrees AND converted from 20 first to 30 standard class seats under GNER.

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
No, the SV were converted under GNER's 'Mallard' refurbishment programme, I believe the HSTs were lengthened to their current 2+9 at the same time

Ah, i remember seeing a news article about the demise of the restaurant car dated 2011 with a thumbnail featuring first class seating.

Knowing how bad the media can be with their stock photos though it wouldn't suprise me if they just took the photo in first class!

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

GNER Mk4 SV at King's Cross, the kitchen is against first class, the seating end to the north:

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Ah, i remember seeing a news article about the demise of the restaurant car dated 2011 with a thumbnail featuring first class seating.

Knowing how bad the media can be with their stock photos though it wouldn't suprise me if they just took the photo in first class!

I believe East Coast introduced the 'complimentary' at-seat first class service, but it was GNER that standardised the set formations. You are right about the media though, sometimes it's lucky if they get the right TOC let alone train!

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

There's this graphic from the train testing site which shows interior layouts and original formations, just took me a while to locate it again:

43096 · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
No, the SV were converted under GNER's 'Mallard' refurbishment programme, I believe the HSTs were lengthened to their current 2+9 at the same time

The HSTs were changed to 2+9 around 2005 when TS vehicles became available after Virgin XC off-leased their HST fleet.

theblackwatch · 11 Nov 2019

Yes it was GNER that altered the SV vehicles. I am pretty sure that, after conversion, the FO nearest the Kitchen was branded 'Restaurant' on the outside, but I have been unable to find any photographic evidence to confirm that my memory is correct.

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

theblackwatch said:
Yes it was GNER that altered the SV vehicles. I am pretty sure that, after conversion, the FO nearest the Kitchen was branded 'Restaurant' on the outside, but I have been unable to find any photographic evidence to confirm that my memory is correct.

I believe that was the case too. Previously, the SVO was branded Restaurant instead.

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
There's this graphic from the train testing site which shows interior layouts and original formations, just took me a while to locate it again:

View attachment 70366

Thanks. I was aware they were converted to standard at some point, was just unsure when.

Don't the SVOs have several airline seats? If so, i'm guessing the full dining service could only be offered if you had a bay of 4?

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

43096 said:
The HSTs were changed to 2+9 around 2005 when TS vehicles became available after Virgin XC off-leased their HST fleet.

Was that as part of the Mallard programme or was that Mk4 only then?

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Thanks. I was aware they were converted to standard at some point, was just unsure when.

Don't the SVOs have several airline seats? If so, i'm guessing the full dining service could only be offered if you had a bay of 4?

The SVs in original or modified condition?

Tetchytyke · 11 Nov 2019

theblackwatch said:
. I am pretty sure that, after conversion, the FO nearest the Kitchen was branded 'Restaurant' on the outside

The "country" end of the FO (coach K) had the branding, yes. I seem to remember they only used the first few bays at the country end of K.

ainsworth74 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Ah, i remember seeing a news article about the demise of the restaurant car dated 2011 with a thumbnail featuring first class seating.

Knowing how bad the media can be with their stock photos though it wouldn't suprise me if they just took the photo in first class!

hexagon789 said:
I believe East Coast introduced the 'complimentary' at-seat first class service, but it was GNER that standardised the set formations. You are right about the media though, sometimes it's lucky if they get the right TOC let alone train!

GNER ran restaurants on pretty much everything (more than BR even) and that lasted throughout their tenure on the ECML including after the SV was rotated and reseated for standard class (they just used the half of coach K which was next to the SV as the restaurant space). NXEC culled the majority of restaurant services down to a few peak time departures and replaced it with "At-Seat Dining" which in first class meant restaurant style (paid for) meals served on proper plates but without restaurant trappings like table cloths or silver service. Standard class passengers could order from the same menu as first class passengers but would be given it takeaway style to eat at their seat. East Coast continued this style of service until May 2011 when they ditched the whole thing and switched to the complimentary style offer as found on airlines or on Virgin West Coast.

theblackwatch said:
I am pretty sure that, after conversion, the FO nearest the Kitchen was branded 'Restaurant' on the outside, but I have been unable to find any photographic evidence to confirm that my memory is correct.

100% it did as I can recall a couple of times boarding coach K on IC225s with "Restaurant" on the outside and grumbling that what was about to be served would not meet the criteria of being restaurant food (this in the days of things like beetroot risotto being the only hot option or afternoon tea where there was nothing hot at all!). I believe it therefore was applied to both the GNER livery and also the East Coast livery. Sadly no photos!

Tetchytyke said:
I seem to remember they only used the first few bays at the country end of K.

Yes that's correct. I suspect it varied depending on anticipated demand but it was somewhere in the region of the first three/four bays of four and the adjacent bays of two and solo seats.

Kurolus Rex said:
Don't the SVOs have several airline seats? If so, i'm guessing the full dining service could only be offered if you had a bay of 4?

I was served in the restaurant car whilst sat in an individual airline seat in coach K!

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

ainsworth74 said:
GNER ran restaurants on pretty much everything (more than BR even) and that lasted throughout their tenure on the ECML including after the SV was rotated and reseated for standard class (they just used the half of coach K which was next to the SV as the restaurant space). NXEC culled the majority of restaurant services down to a few peak time departures and replaced it with "At-Seat Dining" which in first class meant restaurant style (paid for) meals served on proper plates but without restaurant trappings like table cloths or silver service. Standard class passengers could order from the same menu as first class passengers but would be given it takeaway style to eat at their seat. East Coast continued this style of service until May 2011 when they ditched the whole thing and switched to the complimentary style offer as found on airlines or on Virgin West Coast.

100% it did as I can recall a couple of times boarding coach K on IC225s with "Restaurant" on the outside and grumbling that what was about to be served would not meet the criteria of being restaurant food (this in the days of things like beetroot risotto being the only hot option or afternoon tea where there was nothing hot at all!). I believe it therefore was applied to both the GNER livery and also the East Coast livery. Sadly no photos!

Yes that's correct. I suspect it varied depending on anticipated demand but it was somewhere in the region of the first three/four bays of four and the adjacent bays of two and solo seats.

I was served in the restaurant car whilst sat in an individual airline seat in coach K!

I was referring to one of the standard class airline seats in coach H, wouldn't be able to offer a restaurant service on a pull down tray table surely!

You answered my question anyways though

ainsworth74 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
I was referring to one of the standard class airline seats in coach H, wouldn't be able to offer a restaurant service on a pull down tray table surely!

Which is why they ran the restaurant in coach K instead

Kurolus Rex said:
You answered my question anyways though

I do try and help. May not always be successful though :lol:

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

ainsworth74 said:
GNER ran restaurants on pretty much everything (more than BR even) and that lasted throughout their tenure on the ECML including after the SV was rotated and reseated for standard class (they just used the half of coach K which was next to the SV as the restaurant space). NXEC culled the majority of restaurant services down to a few peak time departures and replaced it with "At-Seat Dining" which in first class meant restaurant style (paid for) meals served on proper plates but without restaurant trappings like table cloths or silver service. Standard class passengers could order from the same menu as first class passengers but would be given it takeaway style to eat at their seat. East Coast continued this style of service until May 2011 when they ditched the whole thing and switched to the complimentary style offer as found on airlines or on Virgin West Coast.

I seem to recall the outcry at the change of policy under NX, I think they did similar with their Anglia operations - cutting the restaurant.

A shame Std class passengers are no longer able to avail themselves of the ability to take-away hot dishes.

43096 · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
Was that as part of the Mallard programme or was that Mk4 only then?

The HST "Mallard" programme was after the Mark 4s were done - the HSTs had already had the "brown" refurb early in GNER's time, whereas the Mark 4s didn't get that.

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

theblackwatch said:
Yes it was GNER that altered the SV vehicles. I am pretty sure that, after conversion, the FO nearest the Kitchen was branded 'Restaurant' on the outside, but I have been unable to find any photographic evidence to confirm that my memory is correct.

After some searching(!), you can make out "RESTAURANT" on the left of the PO pictured here: https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk4-Coaching-Stock/Mk4-FO/i-G7jGgwF/A

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

Was there anything inside indicating which part of coach K was the restaurant and which part was first class apart from the external branding?

ainsworth74 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Was there anything inside indicating which part of coach K was the restaurant and which part was first class apart from the external branding?

Table clothes, menus, silverwear, wine glasses and a friendly steward to chivy anyone along who didn't want to eat in the restaurant :lol:

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Was there anything inside indicating which part of coach K was the restaurant and which part was first class apart from the external branding?

As they could set extra tables, if needed by demand, the indication would be which tables were set for dining

Kurolus Rex · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
As they could set extra tables, if needed by demand, the indication would be which tables were set for dining

Ah, i see. I was wondering whether or not that could confuse passengers but it seems the presence of the steward etc that that wasn't a big issue.

hexagon789 · 11 Nov 2019

Kurolus Rex said:
Ah, i see. I was wondering whether or not that could confuse passengers but it seems the presence of the steward etc that that wasn't a big issue.

I presume they'd ask passengers if they wanted to dine or not and if not perhaps direct them to another seat? I would imagine that the seats in K set-aside for dining wouldn't be reservable so only passengers without reservations would potentially take a "restaurant" seat and they could be easily seated elsewhere.

ainsworth74 · 11 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
I presume they'd ask passengers if they wanted to dine or not and if not perhaps direct them to another seat? I would imagine that the seats in K set-aside for dining wouldn't be reservable so only passengers without reservations would potentially take a "restaurant" seat and they could be easily seated elsewhere.

That's certainly how it worked in my experience.

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