Delay Repay sent to wrong TOC

Hello everyone, I sent a Delay Repay claim which related to a cancelled LNER train to LNER who have told me that I sent it to the wrong TOC as my ticket was only valid on GA or Thameslink and Great Northern and not on their service, it was a London to Thetford via Cambridge ticket. I got a GA service from LST instead as GTR were not running from KGX. Who should I have claimed from and what do I do?

Can you elaborate on the exact details from the ticket. From what I can see, London to Thetford via Cambridge has no TOC restriction, although the fare is set by GA. Please also confirm your intended itinerary and the time you eventually got to Thetford. If your original train was supposed to be operated by LNER (and presumably stop at Stevenage) then I think they should provide the compensation.

MikeWh said:

Can you elaborate on the exact details from the ticket. From what I can see, London to Thetford via Cambridge has no TOC restriction, although the fare is set by GA. Please also confirm your intended itinerary and the time you eventually got to Thetford. If your original train was supposed to be operated by LNER (and presumably stop at Stevenage) then I think they should provide the compensation.

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My intended itinerary was the following: London Kings Cross (KGX) to Peterborough (PBO), PBO to Thetford (TTF) and TTF to Wymondham (WMD). My actual itinerary was the following: KGX to London Liverpool Street (LST) by bus, LST to Norwich (NRW) and NRW to WMD by taxi.

I chose to travel to WMD instead of to TTF, which you can think of as travelling short, because that was my original intended destination. I did not hold a Thetford to Wymondham ticket because I intended to buy one before boarding my train at Kings Cross. I'm pretty sure that my original intended train was one that didn't stop at Stevenage (SVG) but how is that relevant? I arrived in Wymondham at about 0030 hours.

MPotter said:

I'm pretty sure that my original intended train was one that didn't stop at Stevenage (SVG) but how is that relevant?

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If you held a ticket from London to Thetford via Cambridge then you are expected to go via Cambridge. This can be done from Stevenage, but not from Peterborough. I'm also surprised that London to Thetford via Cambridge was accepted via Norwich as that also fails to go through Cambridge, unless you'd missed the last train that way and were given permission.

I'm unsure who (or whether) you should try and claim delay repay from becase it seems as though the origin of your problems was trying to use a ticket on an invalid service.

MikeWh said:

If you held a ticket from London to Thetford via Cambridge then you are expected to go via Cambridge. This can be done from Stevenage, but not from Peterborough. I'm also surprised that London to Thetford via Cambridge was accepted via Norwich as that also fails to go through Cambridge, unless you'd missed the last train that way and were given permission.

I'm unsure who (or whether) you should try and claim delay repay from becase it seems as though the origin of your problems was trying to use a ticket on an invalid service.

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Given that the break of journey would effectively result in two notionally seperate journeys, wouldn't this result in a scenario where delay repay could only be claimed for one of those notional journeys given that you can only claim Delay Repay once per ticket? Setting that aside, you make a fair point for Delay Repay purposes.

However as has previously been established on this forum, (correct me if I am wrong) it is possible to board a train with a ticket which is valid on a different route and pay the excess fare onboard or be issued with a zero fare excess ticket if there is no excess fare to pay. On top of that I still intended to pay the excess fare at KGX prior to travelling if possible but it was not possible for me to do so due to the station being closed (although I did later learn that it had an open door somewhere and a phantom service operating to PBO) which meant that the ticket office would be closed anyway and that therefore paying an excess fare would be impossible, unless I was expected to do so at LST in which case I would end up missing the next train and therefore (at least arguably) voluntarily breaking my journey!

That would potentially invalidate part of my delay repay claim which is not what I want so as I'm sure you can appreciate it is a catch 22 and whatever you do might well be wrong! I had every intent to pay the excess fare onboard the train and had even sought out the conductor prior to the train being dispatched but as I left it a bit too last minute, he had other duties to attend to i.e. dispatching the train so having let him know about my situation (and even produced my tickets) I went to find a seat and waited for him to come and find me, he knew that I'd be in First Class as I told him and even showed him my First Class ticket after he questioned whether I had one (presumably as I wasn't dressed in accordance with the unofficial "dress code").

After the guard had dispatched the train, he soon found me and asked to see my ticket. I produced my ticket for the second time and asked him to sell me the change of route excess (which if he had done would've likely eliminated at least part of the problem as I could've then at the very least made a Delay Repay claim from GA given that the service itself was delayed). He responded by asking me to hand it over, I did that and he then took the ticket before marking it with his pen and simply returning it back to me without selling me an excess fare ticket. On top of that, he did not even endorse the ticket for travel via Norwich or issue me with a zero fare ticket (because he didn't think anyone else would check it). However I feel he should've done one of those things.

In light of that, I feel that I might well have to simply appeal to Greater Anglia's (GA's) good nature and try and ask for a full refund of the fare paid on the basis that whilst they weren't technically responsible for the situation that I found myself in, because the service that was cancelled (and which I originally intended to use) was an LNER service and the ones after that were GTR services; but in spite of that, the actions of a member of GA staff (specifically the guard in question) lead to an (at least arguable) breach of contract on the part of them, the company, which in turn resulted in a situation in which I travelled without a valid ticket (but with the express permission of a member of GA staff) and was therefore technically not eligble for Delay Repay. This should therefore mean that I have an arguable case that I am actually entitled to Delay Repay just as if I had been (correctly) sold a "VIA NORWICH" excess fare ticket or issued with a zero fare ticket on that basis. Am I correct?

I will add that the cancellation occured on 09/08/2019 which was the same day on which a combination of power supply problems and numerous broken down trains (which resulted from the power supply problems and which in turn lead to people trespassing on the line which made things even worse and added fuel to the fire) caused numerous trains departing both St Pancras International and KGX to be cancelled, which included all of the services that I could have caught to either PBO or Cambridge (CBG). On top of that the station was officially closed.

MPotter said:

I will add that the cancellation occured on 09/08/2019

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In that case I can conclusively state you are not able to claim anything now as it was three months ago.

I also travelled on that date, forgot to claim and remembered 29 days later. So we both have to move on and just forget about it

If you want to know any further questions then they would need to be written in a concise manner, with itineraries in tabulated format. and with there being absolutely no doubt what ticket(s) exactly was held and what journey was intended to be made and actually made.

I would avoid writing a long essay as this reduces the chances of people reading it, let alone understanding it.

yorkie said:

In that case I can conclusively state you are not able to claim anything now as it was three months ago.

.

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I read it that a claim had been submitted, but now rejected by LNER who did not mention that it was out of time.

yorkie said:

In that case I can conclusively state you are not able to claim anything now as it was three months ago.

I also travelled on that date, forgot to claim and remembered 29 days later. So we both have to move on and just forget about it

If you want to know any further questions then they would need to be written in a concise manner, with itineraries in tabulated format. and with there being absolutely no doubt what ticket(s) exactly was held and what journey was intended to be made and actually made.

I would avoid writing a long essay as this reduces the chances of people reading it, let alone understanding it.

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Could it have been the case that the claim was made to LNER within the timelimit, but they have been 'sitting on it' for a period before rejecting it, hence the time period up until now.

I feel that I might well have to simply appeal to Greater Anglia's (GA's) good nature and try and ask for a full refund of the fare paid on the basis that the actions of the guard in question lead to an arguable breach of contract on the part of them, which in turn resulted in a situation in which I travelled without a valid ticket, but with the express permission of the guard. This should therefore mean that I have an arguable case that I am entitled to Delay Repay just as if I had been sold a "VIA NORWICH" excess fare ticket or issued with a zero fare ticket on that basis. Am I correct?

MotCO said:

I read it that a claim had been submitted, but now rejected by LNER who did not mention that it was out of time.

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That is correct.

WesternLancer said:

Could it have been the case that the claim was made to LNER within the timelimit, but they have been 'sitting on it' for a period before rejecting it, hence the time period up until now.

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Yes, that is what has happened. On top of that, they even delayed passing it onto GTR for a significant length of time (about a couple of months) in spite of having told me that I had sent my claim to the wrong TOC pretty soon after it was made, I believe that this was within 28 days which is ridiculous! I believe that this gross incompetence clearly and plainly warrants a complaint. I had previously sent the bill for my taxi fare to LNER, but as a result of being told that, I immediately forwarded it onto GTR. I thought that they would quickly do the same with my Delay Repay claim but they did not.

In relation to my above question, please find my journey itineraries below:

Intended journey:
Departure station: London Kings Cross
Destination station: Wymondham
Via: Peterborough and Ely (my reference to Thetford above was in error, the train from Ely to Wymondham does nevertheless stop at Thetford)
Scheduled departure date and time: 09/08/2019 T: 21:00:00 (Zulu)

Actual journey:
Departure station: London Liverpool Street
Destination station: Wymondham
Via: Norwich
Scheduled departure date and time: 09/08/2019 T: 22:00:00 (Zulu)

Assuming that the information on recenttraintimes for Friday 9th August is accurate and that you've given the times in BST rather than Zulu, I piece together the following:

Your intended itinerary was King's Cross - Peterborough - Ely - Thetford - Wymondham as follows:
KGX 21:00 - PBO 21:51
PBO 22:19 - ELY 22:52
ELY 23:13 - TTF 23:37 - WMD 23:59 (last train of the day)

You held a London Terminals to Thetford route via Cambridge ticket (which one exactly?) which is not valid for your intended itinerary, but you intended to get the ticket excessed on board to a "route via Peterborough" (which according to BRFares is sometimes cheaper and sometimes more expensive than "route via Cambridge" depending on which specific ticket you have) and also buy a Thetford to Wymondham ticket before you boarded.

Your train was cancelled and nothing was running out of KGX so you made your way to Liverpool Street, at which point it would've been clear that if you went to Cambridge you might miss the last train of the day to WMD (which starts from CBG at 22:55) so it would make more sense to get on a train to Norwich which was closer to your intended destination and a taxi from there (as you would also miss the last train from NRW 22:40 to WMD 22:51). (Although recenttraintimes doesn't show a LST - NRW train at 22:00 and says the last train of the day was LST 21:30 - NRW 23:30.)

Is this all more or less correct? It would be good to know which exact ticket you held, what the scheduled and actual times for the LST to NRW train were (approximate, if you don't remember), and what time you arrived in WMD in the end and hence how long the delay was. And in your delay repay claim to LNER did you make it clear that you intended to get the ticket excessed to via Peterborough on board?

Did LNER say that they were forwarding your claim to GTR? If they did, but out of time, then a claim against GTR should be valid.

As for a claim against GA - are you seriously suggesting that the conductor on the LST-NRW train should have excessed your London-Thetford ticket to a via Peterborough one when you were travelling on a train to Norwich?

It is not surprising that LNER refused your claim for a ticket not valid on their service.
If the claim was referred to GTR within 28 days of the intended journey, then that would be because a valid itinerary would have been:
KGX dep 21.39 ELY arr. 22.57
ELY dep 23.13 WMD arr 23.59
Presumably in all the chaos that 21.39 GTR service was also cancelled. If you wish to pursue it, then as @30907 has just said, try picking it up with GTR on the basis of this itinerary.

Would it be an idea to respond to LNER and ask them to forward it to GTR? If so, you could ask them to confirm the date they received your claim.

This raises the issue that although it should be possible to get an excess on board, it raises problems in the event of disruption as you are not yet covered with tickets for your entire journey.

I don't see how Delay Repay can apply on a route for which you didn't have a valid ticket. There is no contract with the railway to get you to your destination via that route until such time as it has sold you the appropriate ticket (excess). In my mind it would be absurd to think that you're entitled to claim for a cancelled service that you're not entitled to use, just because you say you would have asked for an excess. It feels like a try-on to me.

As for criticism of the guard on the Norwich train, given the evening in question and extensive disruption across many services in the SE, I suspect staff had been told to allow any reasonable journeys that bore any resemblance to the original itinerary, so he didn't charge you an excess, nor feel that an endorsement was necessary. So again, I think it's unreasonable to argue that GA is at fault due to the actions of the guard - he passed you for the journey with no extra charge, and you are complaining?

Bearing in mind how economical with the facts your first post here was, with the highly convoluted detail of your journey only coming out later, I'm not surprised if the TOCs are struggling to understand why you are entitled to compensation. I would imagine it's your responsibility to get any Delay Repay claim in to the correct company within 28 days too, (although under normal circumstances I am sure that those administering the schemes do try and forward to the appropriate company on a best endeavours basis). So far from agreeing you with you that there has been gross incompetence in how your claim has been managed, I'd suggest that any errors made have been made by yourself, but that your basis of claim in the first instance is unreasonable.

Update: I have heard from GTR by post, who have now informed me that they have accepted my Delay Repay claim and will be sending me compensation of 50% of the fare in due course.

On another note, I spoke to a member of Greater Anglia staff about this who warned me that I must not board any train service with an invalid ticket or else I would be issued with a "penalty fine" (I kid you not!), I think she meant a penalty fare! She said that because my return ticket (although valid as far as Thetford) had been marked by the conductor on the London to Norwich service, and was valid only "VIA CAMBRIDGE", then I could not use it to continue my journey after an overnight break of journey and then travel to Thetford. She said that I must buy another ticket and then if I disputed the fare that I must then appeal against it later to avoid being issued with an on the spot fine. This is ridiculous given that neither the penalty fare regulations nor Byelaw 18 apply at Wymondham.

MPotter said:

Update: I have heard from GTR by post, who have now informed me that they have accepted my Delay Repay claim and will be sending me compensation of 50% of the fare in due course.

She said that because my return ticket (although valid as far as Thetford) had been marked by the conductor on the London to Norwich service, and was valid only "VIA CAMBRIDGE", then I could not use it to continue my journey after an overnight break of journey and then travel to Thetford. ...nor Byelaw 18 apply at Wymondham.

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So you got the correct result.

IMO you were correctly advised by the GA member of staff. You chose to travel to Norwich, because you were heading to Wymondham, rather than ask GTR to complete your journey (ie from Cambridge/Ely to Thetford), so to use the ticket for a new journey from WYM the next day could well have caused you trouble, though not a PF.

The Railway Byelaws apply at WYM - I presume you just mean that there is no way of buying tickets there?

30907 said:

So you got the correct result.

IMO you were correctly advised by the GA member of staff. You chose to travel to Norwich, because you were heading to Wymondham, rather than ask GTR to complete your journey (ie from Cambridge/Ely to Thetford), so to use the ticket for a new journey from WYM the next day could well have caused you trouble, though not a PF.

The Railway Byelaws apply at WYM - I presume you just mean that there is no way of buying tickets there?

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I mean Railway Byelaw 18 doesn't apply at WMD (Wymondham), there is a ticket machine but there is also a sign saying that you can buy onboard. The worst that can happen in practice (and is what actually happened) is that the conductor refused to accept my ticket and just sold me a new one instead. No harm done.

Why should I ask GTR (or more likely Greater Anglia, as they were the only TOC operating trains to Cambridge) to arrange me road transport from Cambridge when there is a perfectly good train running all the way to Norwich? Even if I was going to Thetford then surely heading to Norwich would make more sense as it is closer to Thetford then Cambridge isn't it?

yorkie said:

...
If you want to know any further questions then they would need to be written in a concise manner, with itineraries in tabulated format. and with there being absolutely no doubt what ticket(s) exactly was held and what journey was intended to be made and actually made.

I would avoid writing a long essay as this reduces the chances of people reading it, let alone understanding it.

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Always good advice.

MPotter said:

I mean Railway Byelaw 18 doesn't apply at WMD (Wymondham), there is a ticket machine but there is also a sign saying that you can buy onboard....

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I am really surprised Greater Anglia have not removed that sign. I'd be even more surprised if it doesn't get removed soon.

30907 said:

The Railway Byelaws apply at WYM - I presume you just mean that there is no way of buying tickets there?

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There is.

A lot of effort and some prior knowledge is required to fully understand what @MPotter means, as you cannot take the wording at face value.

However there is (currently) a sign which is probably not being used by @MPotter in the manner in which the sign is/was intended to be used, and @MPotter takes the wording of that sign to indicate that even if you are paying with an accepted payment method, your train departs from the platform with the working machine, and the ticket you require is sold on that machine, the choice will be taken not to buy from that machine because the sign says so.

I therefore predict that the sign will be removed or re-worded, as to not do so will put Greater Anglia at a disadvantage in future dealings with @MPotter. I know some people at GA will be reading this forum so it's surely only a matter of time...