Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

RailWonderer · 11 Nov 2019

F Great Eastern said:
7.15am from Newmarket to Cambridge had to turn large numbers of passengers away this morning who were unable to board what I can only describe as the most filthy class 153 I have ever seen.

Apparently a bus was supposed to be sent.

Again, this returns to the fact GA did not anticipate inevtibale delays of new stock, if they did, class 170 leases would’ve been extended and they would be working busy morning peak services instead of going off to Wales too soon. A complete mess. Then they protect themselves with deceptive PR to excuse their lack of planning. When honestly isn’t in the company culture things go south very fast.

What I fear next is the 360s going. There aren’t enough extra 321s to cover, so I expect 317s will fill in and we’ll have short forms. This is only the beginning.

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dk1 · 11 Nov 2019

Crown Point train washer has had work done on it to enable Stadlers to pass through. This will explain the filthy exterior. Intercity sets have again been handbashed in the station on nights.

Meerkat · 11 Nov 2019

RailWonderer said:
Again, this returns to the fact GA did not anticipate inevtibale delays of new stock, if they did, class 170 leases would’ve been extended and they would be working busy morning peak services instead of going off to Wales too soon. A complete mess. Then they protect themselves with deceptive PR to excuse their lack of planning. When honestly isn’t in the company culture things go south very fast.

What I fear next is the 360s going. There aren’t enough extra 321s to cover, so I expect 317s will fill in and we’ll have short forms. This is only the beginning.

This is such an easy thing to state, but much harder to build a sensible business case for.
How long will the ‘inevitable delays’ be (if they really were inevitable and of known length then they would be the plan in the first place)? How long do you risk paying for two sets of leases, plus the storage of the unused ones? You are proposing leasing stock your plan doesn’t need (effectively stating that your own plan is nonsense and taking away the rush from your suppliers), and possibly paying even more for that stock if the leasing company has someone else lined up you have to outbid significantly. You are just damaging the business case for replacing the stock in the first place.
In fact you probably won’t win the franchise in the first place.
“Here is our plan, but we have near zero confidence in our ability to actually do it”

trebor79 · 11 Nov 2019

@Meerkat but on the intercity route at least, all of the old stock is going into storage for the reminder of the franchise. GA could have continued to maintain it , do the exams etc until the 745s started to come in. If they had the GEML service wouldn't be in the state of semi-meltdown it currently is in.

F Great Eastern · 11 Nov 2019

Meerkat said:
This is such an easy thing to state, but much harder to build a sensible business case for.
How long will the ‘inevitable delays’ be (if they really were inevitable and of known length then they would be the plan in the first place)? How long do you risk paying for two sets of leases, plus the storage of the unused ones? You are proposing leasing stock your plan doesn’t need (effectively stating that your own plan is nonsense and taking away the rush from your suppliers), and possibly paying even more for that stock if the leasing company has someone else lined up you have to outbid significantly. You are just damaging the business case for replacing the stock in the first place.

You do realise that it's simply not just a black and white choice between having no leeway and having too much?

Any person with any kind of project management experience knows that a key part of project planning is that you need to identify risks and what happens if such risks become a reality. Saying you don't need to plan for something going wrong because you don't think it will is the sign of arrogance and arrogance in project management is the biggest cause of project failure.

All I see in the Greater Anglia bid is a lack of proper management and identification of risks and planned actions to mitigate them. Whether that's out of desperation and needing to be optimistic to win a bid or poor project management through lack of experience is open to debate but the GA bid required every single thing to go right and on time, which was never going to be likely bearing in mind the fact it relied on two unproven fleets.

Saying that things weren't foreseeable because if they were they would have been taken into account is heads in the sand stuff that comes from people who are unable to admit their mistakes, their shortcomings and instead start a blame game because it's never ever their fault and is always someone elses. It also doesn't take into account that plenty of people outside Abellio's bid and management team could foresee these problems and not just, enthusiasts and commuters.

Shunter_69 · 11 Nov 2019

You keep suggesting no contingency was included but GA have both fleets delayed yet still able to provide a reasonable (not perfect by a long way) service.

The Bombardier’s are over a year late already and there is probably another 6 months of contingency with the 360’s.

Are all these people that could foresee the delays and the lack of contingency fortune tellers or just pessimists that got something right for a change.

ashkeba · 11 Nov 2019

Shunter_69 said:
Are all these people that could foresee the delays and the lack of contingency fortune tellers or just pessimists that got something right for a change.

They might be admirers of a rival train operating company beaten by Abellio?

F Great Eastern · 11 Nov 2019

Shunter_69 said:
Are all these people that could foresee the delays and the lack of contingency fortune tellers or just pessimists that got something right for a change.

Perhaps they are neither and instead are people who have experience either in the industry or in project management unlike the posters who have no experience in that at all but think they know everything?

F Great Eastern · 11 Nov 2019

Was on the 18:12 London to Ipswich tonight and it was only 4 cars. Have to say that it looks like I saw a couple of 4 car EMUs out. Is there a problem with EMU shortages again?

trebor79 · 11 Nov 2019

Just seen a rare sight at Diss. A 9 coach London to Norwich train!

RailWonderer · 11 Nov 2019

Meerkat said:
This is such an easy thing to state, but much harder to build a sensible business case for.
How long will the ‘inevitable delays’ be (if they really were inevitable and of known length then they would be the plan in the first place)? How long do you risk paying for two sets of leases, plus the storage of the unused ones? You are proposing leasing stock your plan doesn’t need (effectively stating that your own plan is nonsense and taking away the rush from your suppliers), and possibly paying even more for that stock if the leasing company has someone else lined up you have to outbid significantly. You are just damaging the business case for replacing the stock in the first place.
In fact you probably won’t win the franchise in the first place.
“Here is our plan, but we have near zero confidence in our ability to actually do it”

You clearly don’t know how well managed stock replacement takes place, nor do you have any experience or listened to those who have done it right. A well delivered plan accounts for delays given all circumstances and possible failures and risk mitigates. Stock has to be replaced but when dealing with large unproven fleets, one of which comes from a manufacturer known to have delays, you have to account for that. Fact of the matter is a large fleet replacement costs, two leases? Chronic underinvestment has justified that. The Anglia region has had hand me downs and poor maintenance for years now, and is far behind the other South East operators. GA has the largest bulk of old rolling stock than most operators bar Northen, Merseyrail and a couple others.
If you’re saying the bid system is flawed, it is, but it seems you aren’t familiar with the Anglia region’s past to understand the particular situation it’s in.

trebor79 · 11 Nov 2019

All very true @RailWonderer. I was wondering to myself when the last time the GEML had brand new rolling stock was? 1950s?
The new fleet is going to be fabulous.

Currently sat in a Mk3 on my way to London to join the Night Riviera. They are still a pleasant travelling environment. I will miss them when they are gone but, progress and at least we are getting decent stuff to replace them which can't be said for a lot of recent replacement projects.

dk1 · 11 Nov 2019

trebor79 said:
All very true @RailWonderer. I was wondering to myself when the last time the GEML had brand new rolling stock was? 1950s?
The new fleet is going to be fabulous .

Class 170s in 1999 & 2002 followed a couple of years later by the 360s.

trebor79 · 11 Nov 2019

Oh yes, of course but I was more thinking the main intercity fleet. AFAIK the backbone of the fleet has been handme downs from ScotRail and the west coast route for a very long time now.
Not that there was anything wrong with the Mk2 sets which included a full restaurant. Ah, now those were the days! Didn't like the turquoise livery though, looked really crap!

dk1 · 11 Nov 2019

trebor79 said:
Oh yes, of course but I was more thinking the main intercity fleet. AFAIK the backbone of the fleet has been handme downs from ScotRail and the west coast route for a very long time now.
Not that there was anything wrong with the Mk2 sets which included a full restaurant. Ah, now those were the days! Didn't like the turquoise livery though, looked really crap!

I would most certainly disagree with you on the turquoise livery. We where like a mini GNER on so many levels. It was simple yet effective.

samuelmorris · 11 Nov 2019

dk1 said:
I would most certainly disagree with you on the turquoise livery. We where like a mini GNER on so many levels. It was simple yet effective.

I wasn't a fan but it was a lot better than the livery that came immediately after it!

Wivenswold · 11 Nov 2019

dk1 said:
Class 170s in 1999 & 2002 followed a couple of years later by the 360s.

And going back further;
1988-1989 Class 321 & Class 156
1980-1981 Class 315
1975-1977 class 312
1962-1964 Class 309
1958-1963 Every other multiple unit.

GA area has done pretty well for new rolling stock, it's just the Intercity cars that have been hand-me-downs. WA has done less well having their brand new 321s taken away within 2 years and replaced by 317s (though they were still pretty new) but that was balanced out in a way with the Electrostars in 2011.

@Shunter_69 Quite a few of us in here are railway/ex-railway so it wasn't just pessimism, anyone with a decent understanding/experience of fleet renewal could have objectively seen that the GA bid team's plan was optimistic.

Meerkat · 12 Nov 2019

As the delays were so obviously predictable to some people I assume those people can tell us accurately when all the new stock will be available?

Bikeman78 · 12 Nov 2019

F Great Eastern said:
Was on the 18:12 London to Ipswich tonight and it was only 4 cars. Have to say that it looks like I saw a couple of 4 car EMUs out. Is there a problem with EMU shortages again?

I did the previous run of that diagram, the 16:17 to Witham formed of 317656. Full from Liverpool Street, rammed from Stratford. I thought this was slightly unusual, only afterwards did I spot that the 16:14 Clacton was cancelled. Fair play, the 317 kept time throughout.

Bikeman78 · 12 Nov 2019

RailWonderer said:
You clearly don’t know how well managed stock replacement takes place, nor do you have any experience or listened to those who have done it right. A well delivered plan accounts for delays given all circumstances and possible failures and risk mitigates. Stock has to be replaced but when dealing with large unproven fleets, one of which comes from a manufacturer known to have delays, you have to account for that. Fact of the matter is a large fleet replacement costs, two leases? Chronic underinvestment has justified that. The Anglia region has had hand me downs and poor maintenance for years now, and is far behind the other South East operators. GA has the largest bulk of old rolling stock than most operators bar Northen, Merseyrail and a couple others.
If you’re saying the bid system is flawed, it is, but it seems you aren’t familiar with the Anglia region’s past to understand the particular situation it’s in.

Ironically the Dutch railways are being much more cautious with their new stock. The new sprinters started running at the end of last year. They have taken over a few routes but almost nothing has been withdrawn. The three car loco hauled double deckers are mainly spare now and won't be formally withdrawn until mid December.

High Dyke · 12 Nov 2019

F Great Eastern said:
7.15am from Newmarket to Cambridge had to turn large numbers of passengers away this morning who were unable to board what I can only describe as the most filthy class 153 I have ever seen.

Apparently a bus was supposed to be sent.

That was probably the same tatty dogbox on the evening Ipswich - Peterborough I caught from Ely...only because the EMR service was late.

I had a pleasant trip from Norwich - London behind 90007+LHCS. However the trip from Liverpool Street - Ely on the 17:07 Kings Lynn was bit bouncy. I'm guessing that a 379 unit doesn't ride very well?

FOH · 12 Nov 2019

I was on 90007+LHCS this morning and it was like nothing could go wrong. Lovely and toasty warm and smooth journey. The less said about the Renatus return I got from Norwich the better - ye gods the ride on that thing was dreadful.

apinnard · 12 Nov 2019

High Dyke said:
That was probably the same tatty dogbox on the evening Ipswich - Peterborough I caught from Ely...only because the EMR service was late.

I had a pleasant trip from Norwich - London behind 90007+LHCS. However the trip from Liverpool Street - Ely on the 17:07 Kings Lynn was bit bouncy. I'm guessing that a 379 unit doesn't ride very well?

Tatty dogbox, love it!

My brother (doesnt know much about railways) was on the Ipswich to Peterborough Friday evening. I met him at Peterborough. His words for the unit he was on were "it had one carriage, looked and felt like I was travelling in a rusty old biscuit tin."

Gotta love the class 153.

trebor79 · 13 Nov 2019

Saw a rake of 4 or 5 Mk3s being hauled south by a 37 on the GEML last night. Wonder if they were off for storage or perhaps maintenance to keep/get back in service?

Astro_Orbiter · 13 Nov 2019

High Dyke said:
That was probably the same tatty dogbox on the evening Ipswich - Peterborough I caught from Ely...only because the EMR service was late.

I had a pleasant trip from Norwich - London behind 90007+LHCS. However the trip from Liverpool Street - Ely on the 17:07 Kings Lynn was bit bouncy. I'm guessing that a 379 unit doesn't ride very well?

They ride fine, it's the track that's knackered!

Railperf · 13 Nov 2019

Astro_Orbiter said:
They ride fine, it's the track that's knackered!

Yes the track does get a bit bouncy over the fens

ttrmine123 · 13 Nov 2019

trebor79 said:
Saw a rake of 4 or 5 Mk3s being hauled south by a 37 on the GEML last night. Wonder if they were off for storage or perhaps maintenance to keep/get back in service?

According to GA, Some intercity carriages have had to go away for heavy maintenance work, so some intercity trains may be one carriage shorter than usual and, where needed, we will operate the service with a different type of train rather than cancel a service."

I will try and find out what this heavy maintenance work is. I'll keep you all updated on any developments I hear about.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/greate...-norwich-to-london-liverpool-street-1-6372271

trebor79 · 13 Nov 2019

Presumably the exams and overhauls that weren't done in the expectation the new fleet would be taking over by now?
Kinda suggests the 745s are still some months away.
I wonder if the intercity sets will go back to 9 coaches or whether this work is just to cover for the next batch of coaches to be due heavy maintenance?
The intercity fleet has been almost uniformly short-formed for at least a couple of months now, so why suddenly send coaches away now to be reactivated... There's an economy with the truth in the quoted words from GA.

F Great Eastern · 13 Nov 2019

ttrmine123 said:
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/greate...-norwich-to-london-liverpool-street-1-6372271

Good to see the PR machine still in full flow.

Some of the new replacements have already been launched on the lines between Norwich, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft and now Cambridge and Greater Anglia have said they will continue to roll them out "thick and fast".

From reading that you'd think that everything was going according to plan, on time. It really is getting tiresome reading the constant PR drive from Greater Anglia.

samuelmorris · 13 Nov 2019

F Great Eastern said:
Good to see the PR machine still in full flow.

From reading that you'd think that everything was going according to plan, on time. It really is getting tiresome reading the constant PR drivel from Greater Anglia

The thick part is accurate. Thick like treacle

Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

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