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TPE train crew route & traction knowledge questions

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tpjm

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Depends what depot - some sign one type initially and some sign two.

You just have to think about cross cover and spare... if you’re training at York, who is covering that depot’s work? Start training everybody at once and you suddenly find you REALLY don’t have enough crew. Because MkVa is late, the focus had to be on the stock that’s required by Dec 19.
Do drivers get trained in both types (or all three) or is it very much separate?
 

BMIFlyer

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Do drivers get trained in both types (or all three) or is it very much separate?
No drivers will be dual Nova trained - only 185 and Nova xx trained - with the exception of Glasgow based drivers who will sign 802 and 397.
 

gimmea50anyday

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A poor decision in my personal opinion. The flexibility of staff availability is quickly being lost due to limiting route and traction knowledge. Yes there are training limitations I understand that, but staff sitting spare while trains are cancelled doesnt make for a reliable railway, and many staff, including myself are unhappy with the loss of the flexibility we once offered. Benefitted us for rest day work and during disruption, benefitted the company for reliability and ensuring all services were covered and during disruption when diverted trains were able to keep running when otherwise they would have been cancelled.
 

Meerkat

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Odd if they don’t train the drivers doing the core Manchester -Leeds bit on all traction doing that bit.
I would have thought that would be useful during disruption to get drivers all back in the right places whilst still getting trains through.
 

8J

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They don't have the paths on that already saturated line of route.
 

Bletchleyite

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Odd if they don’t train the drivers doing the core Manchester -Leeds bit on all traction doing that bit.
I would have thought that would be useful during disruption to get drivers all back in the right places whilst still getting trains through.

You'd think so. But what it does mean is that diagrams are unlikely to be overcomplicated a la LNR because interworking of crews won't be possible, so the service should be more reliable.
 

8J

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You'd think so. But what it does mean is that diagrams are unlikely to be overcomplicated a la LNR because interworking of crews won't be possible, so the service should be more reliable.

That logic is not very practical to go by... Imagine if a train is sat at a terminal end station and a driver is late in and requires their PNB. At said station, there is a driver sat spare/standby who signs the route but not the traction. It simply is not good enough to have certain drivers signing certain traction and costs the company a lot of money in RDW payments to get turns covered when there is a driver sat around twiddling their thumbs because they don't sign the traction.
 

LittleAH

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That logic is not very practical to go by... Imagine if a train is sat at a terminal end station and a driver is late in and requires their PNB. At said station, there is a driver sat spare/standby who signs the route but not the traction. It simply is not good enough to have certain drivers signing certain traction and costs the company a lot of money in RDW payments to get turns covered when there is a driver sat around twiddling their thumbs because they don't sign the traction.

Easy to say this, but if there's anymore delays for training - no new trains would be in until well into 2020. Surely the most pragmatic thing to do is have certain depots sign certain trains, once that is up and running then revisit drivers then signing different traction.
 

BMIFlyer

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Easy to say this, but if there's anymore delays for training - no new trains would be in until well into 2020. Surely the most pragmatic thing to do is have certain depots sign certain trains, once that is up and running then revisit drivers then signing different traction.

Or as we do now, have traction links. Sign the same routes and different traction. That’s how things work at the moment.
 

8J

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Trouble is they don't really work at the moment. Because the training is delayed and so few drivers sign 68s/Mk5s and 802s, trains are being cancelled and terminated short of their destination all the time.

Appreciate some of these issues are well outside of the control of TPE but they do need to create a resilient service.
 

Goldie

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Trouble is they don't really work at the moment. Because the training is delayed and so few drivers sign 68s/Mk5s and 802s, trains are being cancelled and terminated short of their destination all the time.

Appreciate some of these issues are well outside of the control of TPE but they do need to create a resilient service.

Amen to that. There should be a readily understandable and robust plan to bring TPE up to the point where it can reliably run the services it should be running, and that plan should be in the public domain.
 

8J

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At some of the larger depots like York and Manchester Piccadilly, I understand why not all drivers will sign both fleets at least initially as it will take an eternity to trian everyone up.

However, smaller depots like Liverpool and possibly Scarborough and Newcastle should in my opinion sign both.
 

61653 HTAFC

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At some of the larger depots like York and Manchester Piccadilly, I understand why not all drivers will sign both fleets at least initially as it will take an eternity to trian everyone up.

However, smaller depots like Liverpool and possibly Scarborough and Newcastle should in my opinion sign both.
There's only any point in training staff on fleets that they'll actually operate, otherwise they won't retain that competency for very long. You don't want to have complicated working arrangements just to prevent the loss of traction knowledge that might only be needed once in a blue moon.
 

8J

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There's only any point in training staff on fleets that they'll actually operate, otherwise they won't retain that competency for very long. You don't want to have complicated working arrangements just to prevent the loss of traction knowledge that might only be needed once in a blue moon.

Agreed however Liverpool Lime St will see half of services out of this station being operated by 68/mk5 yet the traincrew depot there does not sign the traction. That to me spells trouble.
 

JonathanH

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Agreed however Liverpool Lime St will see half of services out of this station being operated by 68/mk5 yet the traincrew depot there does not sign the traction. That to me spells trouble.

Why? It sounds like the same driver and train manager will work the train into and out of Liverpool Lime Street with relief occurring at Manchester Victoria - what problem would having Liverpool traincrew competent on 68+Mk5 solve if no traincrew swaps are scheduled to happen there?

(I accept that traincrew scheduling could be different if Liverpool crew were competent but the scheduling is set up differently.)

It isn't really any different to EMR not having traincrew at Liverpool. Does that cause trouble?
 

8J

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It is a problem for the likes of cross cover and they are constantly having to cover the 68 turns with rest day volunteers.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It isn't really any different to EMR not having traincrew at Liverpool. Does that cause trouble?
It doesn't cause trouble as such, but does mean a long-distance ECS run from Nottingham to Liverpool each morning. If/when TPE takes the northern half of that route, hopefully they'll use Liverpool crews on some early runs (though that will likely mean hiring extra staff) to prevent issues caused by over-running engineering works and the like. 185s of course will still need to run in empty, but only from Ardwick rather than Nottingham.
 

tpjm

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even the troubled Northern Franchise has got more than that in service.....
They are only introducing two new fleets and they’re virtually identical apart from the traction package.
You might also be interested to learn that TPE’s roll-out of accepted train to revenue earning service was significantly faster than Northern’s... they’ve had new stock “in their possession” if you like, for a while before TPE.
 

Greybeard33

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They are only introducing two new fleets and they’re virtually identical apart from the traction package.
You might also be interested to learn that TPE’s roll-out of accepted train to revenue earning service was significantly faster than Northern’s... they’ve had new stock “in their possession” if you like, for a while before TPE.
In the same way that the CAF Nova 2s and Nova 3s are "virtually identical apart from the traction package"? ;)
 

tpjm

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In the same way that the CAF Nova 2s and Nova 3s are "virtually identical apart from the traction package"? ;)
Not really... Coaches vs. EMU, different body shell, entirely different under the sole bar. They've got the same onboard systems, interior and coloured vinyl but that's about it.
 

JonathanH

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The stabling arrangements for the TPE fleet result in some fairly long ECS workings from December with 802s running from Edge Hill to Stalybridge and Manchester Airport and 68+Mk5 running empty from Longsight to Liverpool. An 802 also works empty from Newcastle to Doncaster each night joining another at York.
 

gimmea50anyday

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We have had long distance ECS workings for years. For example, the early departures from Middlesbrough are formed from units off both York siemens and Newcastle Heaton depots and convey the conductor while running ECS.
 

DannyMich2018

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They are only introducing two new fleets and they’re virtually identical apart from the traction package.
You might also be interested to learn that TPE’s roll-out of accepted train to revenue earning service was significantly faster than Northern’s... they’ve had new stock “in their possession” if you like, for a while before TPE.
Well yes maybe but a much bigger fleet of just over 100 new trains Northern are introducing plus refurbished 170's from Scotrail and soon 769's as well as PRM'ing many sprinters not yet done, what my point is and I'm not the only one to state is TPE now has 44 new trains, some of which were delivered more than a year ago but will less than half a dozen in daily service is not great. But I suppose with all Class 185's PRM-compliant there is less rush to get these in service compared to new/refurbished trains for other operators.
 
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