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HS2 Review ongoing

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WatcherZero

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Major problem with Maglev besides it being terrible at junctions is it can only do very shallow curves meaning the track has to be even straighter than what HS2 proposed. If you thought there were nimbies when only 900 homes and 60 forests were at risk and major terrain issues could be avoided, imagine what the opposition would have been when there were tens of thousands of demolitions required.
 
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The Ham

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Given that the Phase 1 network only goes to Liverpool and Leeds.... it's not really that suprising.
The fleet for the full scheme would obviously be much larger.



Assuming you believe NPR will ever actually happen.
But I can't overstate just how critical the intermediate stations become in this model.
You can use the full capacity of your line for every station, so every station ends up with near tube-like frequencies in both directions.

Manchester can potentially many many trains per hour in all three directions proposed for Phase 1 (Liverpool, Leeds, and London) which produces a journey time benefit beyond the superior journey time the maglevs are having.
I'm not exactly sure where the proposed line between Manchester and Liverpool would have crossed the WCML, but you could have proposed a relatively simple interchange station there, and since you would have all the Liverpool-London capacity at your disposal you could create a very quick and easy interchange.

Anxiety about connections dissapears where there is a train every few minutes, as we see on the tube.

Even on the phase 1 section, you'll only see 4 to 5 trains per hour (assuming no spares) to reach end point based on the listed journey times. That's not a train every few minutes, unless you are counting both sets of services, in which case you'll likely see a similar thing with HS2.

For instance if you are heading to Liverpool you could just catch any HS2 train to Crewe and then see when the next service to Liverpool is and if that's going to get you there faster than the next one.
 

jfowkes

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Front page of tomorrow's times:

EJICvVwWsAMSqk_
 

HSTEd

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Even on the phase 1 section, you'll only see 4 to 5 trains per hour (assuming no spares) to reach end point based on the listed journey times. That's not a train every few minutes, unless you are counting both sets of services, in which case you'll likely see a similar thing with HS2.

For instance if you are heading to Liverpool you could just catch any HS2 train to Crewe and then see when the next service to Liverpool is and if that's going to get you there faster than the next one.

It is hard to get information on what the effective capacity of a Maglev line actually is.
Which is kinda crucial information for capacity comparisons.
(The very high service brake rate implies it should at least match HS2, but I can't be sure)

But I think the point im trying to make is the model of stopping every station allows very high frequencies at all stations.
 

lachlan

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The speeds in that article (45 mins Leeds to Birmingham, 1hr57mins Birmingham to Newcastle are quite a bit faster than those on the Wikipedia article. Not sure why, just thought I'd point that out. Interesting!
 

Chris125

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If you wanted to kill or cut HS2 you wouldn't ask Doug Oakervee so I can't say I'm surprised - he was always going to listen to the engineering and economic arguments that clearly justify building a new line and maximising it's use.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7675019/amp/HS2-ahead-despite-soaring-costs.html

Read this. Can’t currently copy what’s in it. Review recommends green light for HS2.

If that's accurate, it seems to recommend a lot more than the green light for HS2... higher-speed link from HS2 to the SouthWest, new fast line in East Anglia, major upgrade of East Coast Main Line, and extending HS2 to Edinburgh. Looks like excellent news in terms of moving towards a decent high-ish speed network. IF the Government accepts it.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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HS2 should go ahead despite costs soaring 'to £88bn' and ministers should back the full route from London to Manchester and Leeds, independent review recommends
  • HS2 should go ahead despite soaring costs, according to a review of the project
  • Former HS2 chairman admits project is 'not affordable' with the current budget
  • HS2 has been dogged by delay, scandal and spiraling costs in recent years
HS2 should go ahead despite soaring costs, according to a review of the rail project.

An independently-led government review recommends ministers commit to the full proposed network connecting London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

The leaked document admits that it is 'not affordable' within the £56 billion budget set in the 2015 government spending review.

The new estimate of £88 billion is likely to be increased again, the report noted.

The document warns that without the high-speed rail link 'large ticket prices' would be needed to put people off travelling at peak times.

There are also no 'shovel ready' alternative investments that could be made in the existing network to provide for much-needed additional rail capacity.

But the report, written by Douglas Oakervee, the former HS2 chairman, does admit the project - the biggest infrastructure project in Europe - is 'not affordable' within the current budget, The Times reports.

The review also found that HS2 could benefit cities in the north and midlands more than London because of improved connections on intercity lines.

Mr Oakervee suggested the journey from Leeds to Birmingham would be more than halved, to around 45 minutes, and that an hour would be cut from the journey time from Newcastle to Birmingham, to just under two hours.

HS2 has been dogged by delay, scandal and spiralling costs in recent years.

This prompted Prime Minister Boris Johnson to commission the independent review into the project.

It was originally scheduled to be published this autumn but it has been delayed until after the election.

The leak will put pressure on Mr Johnson to confirm whether a Tory government would go ahead with the network.

Mr Johnson has previously admitted the costs of the HS2 would probably be 'north of £100bn'.

In September, Transport Minister Grant Shapps said the first phase of the railway between London and Birmingham would be delayed by up to five years.

That section of the line was due to open at the end of 2026 but it could now be between 2028 and 2031 before the first trains run on the route.

The second phase has been delayed. That route - from Birmingham to Manchester - was due to open in 2032-33 but that has been pushed back to 2035-2040.

The report found that the procurement strategy for the first phase has been a failure.

Prices have been significantly inflated, it says. It also says escalating costs mean the benefits to the taxpayers has dropped from £2.30 for every £1 spent in 2017 to between £1.30 and £1.50 for every £1 spent this year.

HS2's top line speed is about 250mph, though most trains will only run at up to 225mph - still among some of the fastest in the world.

But the report said the maximum speed requirement for trains is 'driving unacceptable costs', with a lower speed target potentially able to keep costs down.

The report concludes that the reduced economic impact of the project does not consider its potential to impact homes and jobs.

It added: 'The evidence is clear that the full network is needed to realise the highest value for money economic return on the investment of HS2. Phase one as a standalone scheme does not represent value for money.'

This is the content of the article. Finally managed to do it
 

Jorge Da Silva

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https://www.ft.com/content/8be95c06-0528-11ea-9afa-d9e2401fa7ca

The UK government should proceed with the full High Speed 2 rail line from London to Leeds and Manchester despite the potential for further cost increases, according to an early draft of the official review into the controversial project. Douglas Oakervee, who was commissioned by Prime Minister Boris Johnson to assess the project, known as HS2, has suggested that cost savings could be found by cutting the number of trains per hour from a maximum of 18 to 14. But Mr Oakervee has rejected the idea of cutting back the eastern leg of the £88bn project’s second phase, from Birmingham to Leeds, which was discussed by the 10-person panel advising the review. The former chair of the company running the project, also called HS2, has also ruled out the idea of ending the line at Old Oak Common in west London instead of Euston in the heart of the capital, according to the leaked document in The Times. Instead he has suggested further stations, for example at Calvert in Buckinghamshire to connect with a new east-west line from Oxford to Cambridge. Mr Oakervee also appears to have ignored the question of whether speeds should be cut to save money, another idea discussed by the panel. Trains on the line will be able to run at up to 250mph although most would be likely to travel at 225mph. The draft document was meant to be published in the autumn but was put off until after the general election, with its findings set to be handed to the transport secretary in the new government. Department for Transport officials said Mr Oakervee had not finalised his report before the election was called. “No copy of this has been provided to the department,” said one. “He will deliver it to the new government, and any views ahead of that are speculation.” The draft report broadly endorses the scheme, saying that its main purpose is to provide much-needed extra capacity on the railway system rather than high speeds. The government was forced to announce this summer that the project was about £30bn over budget and that the second phase, beyond Birmingham, would come in up to seven years late, with a completion date of up to 2040. The first phase is now delayed by five years to 2031. That prompted Mr Johnson to commission Mr Oakervee to conduct a review. The Oakervee draft report suggests that HS2 has already spent about £9bn, of which up to £3bn in land and property costs could be recovered if the scheme was cancelled. The government’s net cost of cancellation would be £2.5bn to £3.6bn, it said. It also said that the economic benefits of the scheme had dropped from £2.30 per £1 spent in 2017 to a much more modest £1.30. Finally the report suggests that HS2’s approach to procurement had “inflated prices” for the civil engineering works on phase one; it has urged a new approach to ensure that contracts are on “acceptable commercial terms”. The only big loser from the draft review appears to be Staffordshire. The document suggests scrapping a connection to the West Coast main line which would allow compatible trains from the north to run through Stoke and Stafford and on to Birmingham and London, reducing journey times. Conservative-led Staffordshire county council had fought hard to get a junction at Handsacre, which was not in the original plan. Recommended HS2 Northern business leaders warn against HS2 rail cuts Politicians and business leaders in the Midlands have long argued that the economic impact of joining cities such as Nottingham, Leicester and Leeds with faster rail links has not been taken into account and will be pleased with the recommendation for a fresh assessment. Henri Murison, director of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, welcomed the leak, saying: “The Northern Powerhouse independent review on HS2 said that there were no identified credible alternatives to HS2 in order to deliver the same capacity, and that it has the potential to unlock greater growth in North and Midlands. It is welcome that their recommendations are mirrored by the government’s own Oakervee Review.” HS2 is one of the country’s most controversial infrastructure projects in recent history. It has been beset by delays, contract scandals and concerns over poor management, as well as allegations by whistleblowers that parliament was misled on its budget for land purchases. Scores of people have also had property seized to make way for the line but have been paid late or are still waiting, in some cases threatening their livelihoods. Earlier this year the House of Lords economic affairs committee called for the work on the line to be paused until the economic case for the project had been made, saying the costs were out of control.

Another article
 

MarkyT

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Predictably depressing daily mail reader reactions...
From the FT report, the review suggests an intermediate station at Calvert should be considered again. While that might be popular with land speculators hoping to making a fast buck in that area, I hope the idea is quickly dismissed, as it would dilute the project's whole long distance purpose, and probably abstract heavily from other stations nearby so that improved semi-fast services on WCML, using capacity created by moving the fastest expresses to the new line, might be less economic. Ph.2A construction would have to be accelerated (relative to Ph.1) to avoid building Handsacre. The fallout from dropping Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield could be difficult politically though. Perhaps it would be better to look at measures to make the Handsacre WCML connection cheaper, or options to relocate it.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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Predictably depressing daily mail reader reactions...
From the FT report, the review suggests an intermediate station at Calvert should be considered again. While that might be popular with land speculators hoping to making a fast buck in that area, I hope the idea is quickly dismissed, as it would dilute the project's whole long distance purpose, and probably abstract heavily from other stations nearby so that improved semi-fast services on WCML, using capacity created by moving the fastest expresses to the new line, might be less economic. Ph.2A construction would have to be accelerated (relative to Ph.1) to avoid building Hanslope. The fallout from dropping Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield could be difficult politically though. Perhaps it would be better to look at measures to make the Hansacre WCML connection cheaper, or options to relocate it.

probably keep hansacre again due to political reasons. I also think Calvert will be dismissed and I am glad the route ends at Euston not Old Oak. But full Y HS2 needs to be built
 

DynamicSpirit

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Predictably depressing daily mail reader reactions...
From the FT report, the review suggests an intermediate station at Calvert should be considered again. While that might be popular with land speculators hoping to making a fast buck in that area, I hope the idea is quickly dismissed, as it would dilute the project's whole long distance purpose, and probably abstract heavily from other stations nearby so that improved semi-fast services on WCML, using capacity created by moving the fastest expresses to the new line, might be less economic.

I imagine it would also cause serious pathing difficulties unless you stopped every train there (which would be daft - nowhere near enough population or connections), since any train stopping there would then conflict with a fast train behind it for pathing once it leaves the station.
 

ABB125

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I read a few of the Daily Mail comments. Interesting reading...
  • Scrap HS2 - it will go over budget because Crossrail has
  • Scrap HS2 - it will go over budget. Build HS3 instead (because that won't ever go over budget will it?...thought not!)
  • Scrap HS2 - no-one will use it (except for all the people who will use it so they can live in the cheap north and work in London...)
  • Scrap HS2 - no-one will be able to afford to use it
  • Scrap HS2 - it only saves 25 minutes (on what journey i'm not too sure)
  • Scrap HS2 - upgrade existing lines instead
  • Scrap HS2 - reopen the Great Central Railway (:))
There are one or two slightly less hysterical comments, but they likely fall into the category of "conspiracy theory":
  • Of course the review recommends proceeding - it was lead by the former HS2 chairman
  • Of course it will go ahead, as it will be lining the pockets of those promoting it
There's only one comment which I would regard as true (although I fully expect a firm rebuttal from those on the forum who work in the industry!):
  • The reason the cost is increasing is because contractors bid too low, knowing that the government will have to give them the contract, safe in the knowledge that when they reveal that the actual amount of money they need is double what they quoted the money will be available
Nevertheless, this does appear to be good news.
 

MarkyT

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I read a few of the Daily Mail comments. Interesting reading...
  • Scrap HS2 - it will go over budget because Crossrail has
  • Scrap HS2 - it will go over budget. Build HS3 instead (because that won't ever go over budget will it?...thought not!)
  • Scrap HS2 - no-one will use it (except for all the people who will use it so they can live in the cheap north and work in London...)
  • Scrap HS2 - no-one will be able to afford to use it
  • Scrap HS2 - it only saves 25 minutes (on what journey i'm not too sure)
  • Scrap HS2 - upgrade existing lines instead
  • Scrap HS2 - reopen the Great Central Railway (:))
There are one or two slightly less hysterical comments, but they likely fall into the category of "conspiracy theory":
  • Of course the review recommends proceeding - it was lead by the former HS2 chairman
  • Of course it will go ahead, as it will be lining the pockets of those promoting it
There's only one comment which I would regard as true (although I fully expect a firm rebuttal from those on the forum who work in the industry!):
  • The reason the cost is increasing is because contractors bid too low, knowing that the government will have to give them the contract, safe in the knowledge that when they reveal that the actual amount of money they need is double what they quoted the money will be available
The groupthink is powerful on that site. Sometimes I used to weigh in with counterarguments on rail related issues but it doesn't help my mental health to engage with such a toxic swamp of misinformation and prejudice.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's only one comment which I would regard as true (although I fully expect a firm rebuttal from those on the forum who work in the industry!):
  • The reason the cost is increasing is because contractors bid too low, knowing that the government will have to give them the contract, safe in the knowledge that when they reveal that the actual amount of money they need is double what they quoted the money will be available
Nevertheless, this does appear to be good news.

Government contracts are always like that, it's called "get well" from the contractor's point of view.
However, HS2 section construction bids were all competitive and it was by no means a given that particular contractors would win them.
Bidding costs a fortune, and you can also lose a fortune if you get it wrong (eg Carillion).
I'm not sure any of the main contracts have been confirmed yet, they are waiting for the final go-ahead.
Somewhere, the report criticises HS2 Ltd for its Phase 1 contract processes and wants Phase 2 done a different way.

It's only properly good news if the new government endorses the report's findings and coughs up the cash to pay for it.
But as they all seem to have trillions to spend just now it might not be a problem.
In fact, if there are major changes to the project it will inject yet more delay and cost increases.
 

HSTEd

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So if the report, apparently, suggests a top end of 14 trains per hour.

Which four services get deleted from the reference timetable?
Also this completely junks the argument HS2 was using over dwell times and OOC......
 

hwl

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I imagine it would also cause serious pathing difficulties unless you stopped every train there (which would be daft - nowhere near enough population or connections), since any train stopping there would then conflict with a fast train behind it for pathing once it leaves the station.
Calvert is quite cunning politically as it would link to EWR and placate some protesters
 

DynamicSpirit

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It appears that the report also suggests that if HS2 isn't built, the WCML conventional network will need to see steep fair increases to avoid overcrowding. That of course completely matches what the usual laws of supply and demand say, and so will not come as any surprise to anyone with a reasonable grasp of economics.

I wonder how those who have argued against HS2 on basis that it will (allegedly) cause fare increases will react ;)
 

DerekC

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I imagine it would also cause serious pathing difficulties unless you stopped every train there (which would be daft - nowhere near enough population or connections), since any train stopping there would then conflict with a fast train behind it for pathing once it leaves the station.

Well yes, but the same could be said of any intermediate station on any railway. HS2 has the advantage that it can build Rolls-Royce stations with platform track loops, so the interaction is minimised. I have to say that almost everyone I talk to about HS2 (other than those already steeped in the project) thinks it's obviously daft that there are no intermediate stops. It gives it a flavour of being built for metropolitan elites.

So building Calvert may well have some political wind behind it. And of course economics could be tweaked to suit, especially if lots of building in association with EWR and the Oxford-Cambridge Expressway is on the cards. And I bet some of those likely to profit are Tory Party donors - so it's a political win-win!
 

DynamicSpirit

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Well yes, but the same could be said of any intermediate station on any railway. HS2 has the advantage that it can build Rolls-Royce stations with platform track loops, so the interaction is minimised. I have to say that almost everyone I talk to about HS2 (other than those already steeped in the project) thinks it's obviously daft that there are no intermediate stops. It gives it a flavour of being built for metropolitan elites.

Not really. The problem is that, even with the suggested reduction to 14tph, you're looking at basically a train about every 4 minutes. It will take something like 4 minutes for a train to slow down, stop, and speed up again, so any train that stops at Calvert is then occupying the path of the following train (unless you make that train stop there as well - and by that logic, you then have to stop every train there, which then slows down every train for the benefit of relatively few passengers). Platform loops won't help because a train will still be in the path of the following train where the loops merge back into a 2-track railway.

The problem doesn't occur that much elsewhere because practically everywhere else where different stopping patterns exist on a 2-track railway, frequencies are much lower than HS2 frequencies will be.
 

si404

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Calvert is quite cunning politically as it would link to EWR and placate some protesters
But is only really justifiable with a serious new town (100k+) near there - MK and Oxford are too far away from Calvert for it to beat the classic lines, and Aylesbury isn't big enough on its own to justify stopping the amount of trains that will have to stop.

Such a large new development will perk up the Cublington/Wing area protestors - who are pretty good at blocking grand projects (only one failure, which still ended up watering down a scheme) and are already on standby for the E-W Expressway.
So if the report, apparently, suggests a top end of 14 trains per hour.

Which four services get deleted from the reference timetable?
There's only 17 trains allocated, so only 3 disappear:
3 Birmingham
3 Manchester
1 Liverpool/Preston (split at Crewe)
1 Liverpool/Crewe (so 400m long south of Crewe)
2 Scotland
1 Macclesfield
2 Newcastle
1 York/Sheffield (split at Toton)
1 Leeds/Sheffield (split at Toton)
2 Leeds

Not building Handsacre junction suggests the Macclesfield goes. I'd imagine the other 2 are the Yorkshire services becoming 2tph to Leeds and Sheffield, removing the third train from both York and Leeds. Or perhaps the Newcastle trains pick up a stop south of York where they form the front portion of a Yorkshire-terminating train - which wouldn't remove capacity.

So we have:
3 Birmingham
3 Manchester
1 Liverpool/Preston
1 Liverpool/Crewe
2 Scotland
2 Newcastle/Leeds
1 Leeds/Sheffield
1 York/Sheffield

I presume the reduction in frequency is to reduce the number of platforms needed at Euston, and the amount of rolling stock needed. Both are pretty marginal and won't save money.
 

MarkyT

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Calvert is quite cunning politically as it would link to EWR and placate some protesters
It could lead to massive development around there in the longer term which could actually raise a lot of protest from the ecologically minded.
 

Rational Plan

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But is only really justifiable with a serious new town (100k+) near there - MK and Oxford are too far away from Calvert for it to beat the classic lines, and Aylesbury isn't big enough on its own to justify stopping the amount of trains that will have to stop.

Such a large new development will perk up the Cublington/Wing area protestors - who are pretty good at blocking grand projects (only one failure, which still ended up watering down a scheme) and are already on standby for the E-W Expressway.
There's only 17 trains allocated, so only 3 disappear:
3 Birmingham
3 Manchester
1 Liverpool/Preston (split at Crewe)
1 Liverpool/Crewe (so 400m long south of Crewe)
2 Scotland
1 Macclesfield
2 Newcastle
1 York/Sheffield (split at Toton)
1 Leeds/Sheffield (split at Toton)
2 Leeds

Not building Handsacre junction suggests the Macclesfield goes. I'd imagine the other 2 are the Yorkshire services becoming 2tph to Leeds and Sheffield, removing the third train from both York and Leeds. Or perhaps the Newcastle trains pick up a stop south of York where they form the front portion of a Yorkshire-terminating train - which wouldn't remove capacity.

So we have:
3 Birmingham
3 Manchester
1 Liverpool/Preston
1 Liverpool/Crewe
2 Scotland
2 Newcastle/Leeds
1 Leeds/Sheffield
1 York/Sheffield

I presume the reduction in frequency is to reduce the number of platforms needed at Euston, and the amount of rolling stock needed. Both are pretty marginal and won't save money.

I think a lot of the rising cost is from building a railway that can cope with 18 trains an hour and the cost of civils that are needed for low maintenance of track under such a punishing regime.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not really. The problem is that, even with the suggested reduction to 14tph, you're looking at basically a train about every 4 minutes. It will take something like 4 minutes for a train to slow down, stop, and speed up again, so any train that stops at Calvert is then occupying the path of the following train (unless you make that train stop there as well - and by that logic, you then have to stop every train there, which then slows down every train for the benefit of relatively few passengers). Platform loops won't help because a train will still be in the path of the following train where the loops merge back into a 2-track railway.

The Chairman of SNCF had one piece of advice for the UK regarding HS2 when it was being designed - don't build politically motivated intermediate stations in the middle of nowhere.
There are quite a few of those dotted about the TGV network.
 

Rational Plan

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The long range planning options for new housing in the Oxford Cambridge axis call for a million new homes and Milton Keynes can only take so many. There are going to need to build some new towns as well as expanding the existing ones over the next 30 years. This is why east west rail and the new expressway are being pushed forward the government is not spending all that money to shorten some commutes, it's to all these areas to grow even more and absorb a lot more homes.

Calvert is very likely to get a new town of some size, but what is somewhat uncertain. The planning scenarios range from 16 (small) new towns to just 2. One option calls over half a million people living at a new high density town at Calvert. But that would require some serious money upfront and the local politics would be 'interesting'. If that scenario came about then a new station on HS2 would be justified. At the end of the day Calvert can be added later if needed, by the time that happened they would probably be building an eastern high speed line south from Toton anyway.
 

quantinghome

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I'd imagine you would have a dynamic passing loop with a regular stopping pattern dependent on dwell times, acceleration and braking etc. Let's say the main line has a train every 3 minutes, then every third train would make a stop, assuming it could decelerate, dwell, and then accelerate back to hit the slot 9 minutes behind the one it vacated, taking the place of the next train due to stop. Or every 4th train with 12 minute gaps.

Given the present uncertainty though, I think it would be better to just allow for passive provision of a station. It's clearly quite a strategic location and who knows what it could provide in the future.
 

The Ham

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A recent report on the number of passengers on the WCML between London and Glasgow had the numbers only about 1.2% from the predicted numbers for HS2, even though we're years away from the opening of Phase 1, let alone the full scheme (which would be when you'd expect most the passengers to be traveling between London and Glasgow).

When you look at the passenger numbers to the areas which would benefit from HS2 you see the following growth:

View media item 3340
To put that in perspective the expected growth to the opening of Phase 1 it was 50%, yet those regions which are going to benefit from phase 1 have already reached 70% and only need to have growth of 1% a year to exceed the predictions for phase 2.

As such it's not surprising that it's been given the go ahead in the leaked report.
 
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