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Forbidden from using power socket in station waiting room
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My own take on this is that if a member of railway staff says you can't use a socket that's within railway premises (and clearly not intended to be used by the public as in the OP) then you can't use it - full stop.
But we could go round in circles and say how do we know it's clearly not intended? I guess one might say the presence of a vending machine is key here.
Had there been no vending machine maybe it would far less clear cut.
The fact the OP stopped when asked was of course the right thing to do at that moment, regardless of the rights or wrongs of this.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think this is pretty clear and I don't think anyone is debating this specific point at this stage[1]. What's more under debate is (a) whether, absent any text on it saying you can't use it, it's reasonable to use it until told otherwise, and (b) whether, in such a situation, the user could viably be prosecuted rather than just told to pack it in.
[1] Other than whether it's in the security guard's remit to tell people not to do it - just like some security guards tell people they should not take photographs even though that is counter to their employer's policy.
Abstracting electricity is an indictable offence therefore the ‘any person’ power of arrest (S.24A PACE) is available to use until a constable arrives to take custody of you.
The railway byelaws are all triable summarily-only therefore the ‘any person’ power of arrest does not apply, hence that provision to obtain your details for byelaw offences.
shredder1
Established Member
ROFL!!If electricity is stolen, what is the charge?
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Perhaps the warnings about "illegal" use of plug sockets is going to get more common? I have two friends who have bought electric cars and both have been warned by their employers that recharging at work through a socket will be deemed theft and could lead to dismissal.
daveshah
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If electricity is stolen, what is the charge?
Battery!
I just laughed out loud in McDonald’s. This forum needs like buttons
swt_passenger
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It would be a matter for Inspector Coulombo, I expect.If electricity is stolen, what is the charge?
In my view, common sense and reasonableness needs to be applied.
If a standard type of power socket is readily accessible to the public, in a place that is open to the public, then common sense suggests that use of that socket is reasonable, unless specifically prohibited.
There is however no "right" or "entitlement" to use the power socket, and anyone so doing must immediately cease use if told to by the owner or manager of the premises (including by a security officer employed by the owner or manager)
In the absence of any specific prohibition, I very much doubt that any prosecution for theft or abstraction of electricity would succeed. The situation is arguably comparable to taking a drink of tap water from a water tap in a place open to the public.
Or perhaps comparable to use of toilet paper or hot water in a toilet open to the customers.
I have never seen a sign that invites one to use the toilet paper, but that does not mean that use is theft. It is accepted practice, despite the lack of any specific granting of permission.
If a TOC wish to prohibit charging of portable electronics, then IMHO that is a bit bloody minded, but they are entitled to make such a rule.
Anyone refusing to comply could be asked to leave.
The cost of charging portable electronics is utterly trivial, and as said might be compared to providing toilet paper, water, maybe even hot water, and electric light in places used by customers.
If a standard type of power socket is readily accessible to the public, in a place that is open to the public, then common sense suggests that use of that socket is reasonable, unless specifically prohibited.
There is however no "right" or "entitlement" to use the power socket, and anyone so doing must immediately cease use if told to by the owner or manager of the premises (including by a security officer employed by the owner or manager)
In the absence of any specific prohibition, I very much doubt that any prosecution for theft or abstraction of electricity would succeed. The situation is arguably comparable to taking a drink of tap water from a water tap in a place open to the public.
Or perhaps comparable to use of toilet paper or hot water in a toilet open to the customers.
I have never seen a sign that invites one to use the toilet paper, but that does not mean that use is theft. It is accepted practice, despite the lack of any specific granting of permission.
If a TOC wish to prohibit charging of portable electronics, then IMHO that is a bit bloody minded, but they are entitled to make such a rule.
Anyone refusing to comply could be asked to leave.
The cost of charging portable electronics is utterly trivial, and as said might be compared to providing toilet paper, water, maybe even hot water, and electric light in places used by customers.
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175mph
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A few months ago when I was waiting for a taxi and waited in a hospital entrance area, I needed to urgently charge my phone with the battery charge being less than 5% and I plugged it into a socket with a red switch and nothing bad happened. A security guy approached me but merely to ask if I was needed any assistance as I looked lost to them.
These days the red 13 amp power sockets in hospitals are generally used to indicate that the sockets will still function in a power cut due to provision of backup power supply. Ideally they should only be used for life critical purposes, but the power required to charge a phone is so minute that it is unlikely to matter.
Historically, in NHS hospitals, portable X-ray machines were fitted with special red coloured 13 amp plugs. Contrary to all generally accepted good practice, these special plugs contained no fuse and therefore permitted use of an X ray machine that might blow a 13 amp fuse.
This had the unfortunate result that plugging a portable X-ray machine into a 13 amp socket on a 20 amp or smaller circuit might blow the fuse or trip the circuit breaker in the fuse box.
Therefore red sockets were installed only on 30/32 amp circuits.
This practice is hopefully now extinct. Modern portable X-ray machines are either connected to special 32 amp sockets, or use a standard plug with a 13 amp fuse in it. An internal battery supplies extra power.
ElectroSoldier
Member
Ok going on that basis. That you can use it unless told otherwise.
Why would you then complain when you are told otherwise? By sign or security?
kristiang85
Established Member
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On a slight tangent, a while back I once saw a bloke with a standard class ticket put his phone in first class (which was empty save for one or two people) and sit in standard whilst it charged. I think the guard later saw what he was doing, and started trying to get his details for using the first class facilities without a valid ticket. Unfortunately I had to get off whilst they were still arguing so I don't know the eventual outcome, but given that first class was pretty much empty and the man was sitting in standard, I did think it was a bit officious. Although obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise standard passengers will start helping themselves to free food, etc.
What are peoples' opinions on that?
What are peoples' opinions on that?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you want to use the facilities of First Class, you pay a First Class fare.
Maybe the answer is to do something comparable to needing to use the toilet but there are no publlic toilets around; go into a pub, and ask permission to use their toilet (if you are not intending to purchase anything).
If there is an accessible plug socket at the station, seek permission from a member of staff first before using it. That should cover you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
True, though where that differs from that scenario is that the OP is presumably already a paying customer of the railway, whereas the person going into the pub isn't and doesn't intend to be unless the publican says "yes but only if you buy something".
A guard told me about the number of people using first class with standard class tickets just to charge their phone. It does seem a bit pedantic for a guard to make a big deal in your case where the passenger remained in standard class although presumably there's a risk of his phone getting nicked?
I was in the doctors recently and somebody was charging their phone using a plug socket in the waiting room, nobody seemed to mind.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It does amaze me just how many people seem to carry a cable around but can't be bothered carrying a power bank. They cost next to nothing and completely solve this issue.
AnkleBoots
Member
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I have it in my mind that they are or were a fire risk
There have been a few incidents of them overheating, but you could say the same thing about anything with a rechargeable battery. The Samsung Note 7, for example.
duffield
Established Member
The law often resorts to the question of what a 'reasonable person' would believe. I would think that (say) 20 years ago an unlabelled socket on railway premises would not be seen as a facility a 'reasonable person' would believe was for public use.
Today, I think it would be a much more nuanced question, and given that many people expect phone charging facilities to be freely available on the railways, certainly on trains but possibly on stations, a court might well decide that unless it was obvious that a socket was not for public use, a person using such a socket could be given the benefit of the doubt as to whether they had the mens rea (intention or knowledge of wrongdoing) to be convicted.
TLDR: Times change, any court would now probably give benefit of doubt to the accused unless the socket was obviously not for public use or the accused had persisted in using the socket after being informed it was not for public use.
I am not a lawyer, perhaps if anyone with legal knowledge is reading they would care to comment as to whether this is a reasonable interpretation?
Today, I think it would be a much more nuanced question, and given that many people expect phone charging facilities to be freely available on the railways, certainly on trains but possibly on stations, a court might well decide that unless it was obvious that a socket was not for public use, a person using such a socket could be given the benefit of the doubt as to whether they had the mens rea (intention or knowledge of wrongdoing) to be convicted.
TLDR: Times change, any court would now probably give benefit of doubt to the accused unless the socket was obviously not for public use or the accused had persisted in using the socket after being informed it was not for public use.
I am not a lawyer, perhaps if anyone with legal knowledge is reading they would care to comment as to whether this is a reasonable interpretation?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No more so than a mobile phone or laptop, they just contain a lithium-ion battery like any such device (they are basically a laptop battery in a box with a couple of USB ports on it, and often a torch because they can). Don't buy dirt-cheap rubbish from the far East (or expensive rubbish from the far East such as the Galaxy Note) and you'll be fine.
shredder1
Established Member
Again it depends what is advertised, if at the time the first class service was advertise to include plug sockets at seat, and this was back up by none in standard class, then yes in this case they could argue that its clear that they are only intended for first class passenger use
An SIA badge is not required by security staff working for their employer (i.e. not contractors) unless they are performing door supervisor duties, i.e. controlling access to a licensed premises.
AnkleBoots
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Thanks. Do any TOCs employ them directly?
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