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Bridge strikes - are they becoming more frequent?

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BRX

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Am I just noticing them more, or are they increasingly often a cause of disruption, and if so why? Are lorry drivers navigating by google maps?

Also, does the railway attempt to recover costs (whether direct costs of physical damage, or costs incurred by disruption) from the owners of the vehicles?
 
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Am I just noticing them more, or are they increasingly often a cause of disruption, and if so why? Are lorry drivers navigating by google maps?

Also, does the railway attempt to recover costs (whether direct costs of physical damage, or costs incurred by disruption) from the owners of the vehicles?

I studied this through work a while ago when I worked for a major haulier, in answer to your questions:
- Sat Navs have some role to play in it, especially when drivers are diverted we saw a disproportionate amount of incidents happening when drivers were off route e.g. due to road closures or traffic.
- Costs recovery; Absolutely, there is also a fixed cost per strike which is charged when a strike is reported by the driver irrespective of how hard the bridge is hit.
 

bobbyrail

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Am I just noticing them more, or are they increasingly often a cause of disruption, and if so why? Are lorry drivers navigating by google maps?

Also, does the railway attempt to recover costs (whether direct costs of physical damage, or costs incurred by disruption) from the owners of the vehicles?

Am I just noticing them more? Possibly if you mean through on-line media, things do tend to flag up now that wouldn't have a few years ago.

Are they increasingly often a cause of disruption? Again could be the above but could also be a more cautious approach by NR, a line flagged as having weak bridges may lead to a more through structural investigation or maybe rules have changed on how bridge strikes are dealt with.

Are lorry drivers navigating by google maps? Not just Google but TomTom etc may folks feel that if the sat nav has sent them that way them they should be able to go that way, that's not just lorry drivers though that's many drivers of cars and light vans as well.

Does the railway attempt to recover costs? From previous post on this and very similar subjects the answer from those in the industry seemed to be yes on the whole.
 

swt_passenger

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I think previous discussions have mentioned that some lorry drivers use normal Satnavs rather than specialist kit for HGVs that can avoid low bridges...
 

BRX

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- Costs recovery; Absolutely, there is also a fixed cost per strike which is charged when a strike is reported by the driver irrespective of how hard the bridge is hit.
Is recovery often successful? I can imagine that it might come to such a large amount that it would simply bankrupt a smaller haulier, although I guess it's done via insurance?
 

furnessvale

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Is recovery often successful? I can imagine that it might come to such a large amount that it would simply bankrupt a smaller haulier, although I guess it's done via insurance?
Provided the HGV remains at the scene, recovery via insurance is straightforward.

Sadly, many HGVs make off if not immobilised by the "accident".
 

Spartacus

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I'd certainly put a lot of it down to using inappropriate sat-navs: it's one of those things, when people use a device to tell them the answer there's a tendency to believe it, even when their own eyes and brain would tell them it's nonsense if they were engaged. Same for everything from (mis)reading a map or using a calculator up....

Nationality isn't really a direct factor, as bridges are plated in metric and imperial now and there's can't be many drivers on the road who don't know how to read the figures.
 

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BRX

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AM9

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Shouldn't a driver that drives (or attempts to drive) a vehicle down a road where maximum height appropriately marked is lower than that vehicle, be given licence points for Driving Without Due Care and Attention, and of course automatically be liable for consequential damage?
 

furnessvale

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Shouldn't a driver that drives (or attempts to drive) a vehicle down a road where maximum height appropriately marked is lower than that vehicle, be given licence points for Driving Without Due Care and Attention, and of course automatically be liable for consequential damage?
There is no offence unless he actually attempts to pass under the bridge.

Many such roads have commercial premises immediately adjacent to the bridge which need servicing by HGVs.
 

Far north 37

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AM9

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There is no offence unless he actually attempts to pass under the bridge.

Many such roads have commercial premises immediately adjacent to the bridge which need servicing by HGVs.
Driving down a road where appropriate signs warn the driver that he cannot continue is an offence of driving without due care and attention, or worse if the driver acknowledged that he/she was aware that the vehicle was not authorised to travel on that road. We are generally talking about HGVs/PSVs here so the obstruction and disruption called by such a vehicle turning around would also be considered a traffic offence.
Ultimately, a person who by their actions demonstrates that they have insufficent attention to or knowledge of either their vehicle and/or what road signs are should need to retake their test.
If their is an industrial address beyond the warming sign, then the road beyond should have warnings of 'No Through Road for High Vehicles'.
 

Spartacus

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If their is an industrial address beyond the warming sign, then the road beyond should have warnings of 'No Through Road for High Vehicles'.

It's quite common for there to be an address needing to be visited between the first warning sign and the bridge. Take Leeman Road at York for instance, low bridge with plenty of vehicles going down that would hit it, expect they're turning into the Royal Mail depot just before the bridge.

'High vehicles' is certainly open to interpretation, is that the extra high trailers becoming ever more popular, or anything above the size of a people carrier ? I know a few bridges where anything above that size wouldn't fit. This is just one reason why there doesn't need to be an industrial premises down a road to cause issues, also simple delivery vehicles of all sizes can come a cropper whether they're dropping of someone's shopping or new fridge-freezer.

Anyway, you can't charge anyone with anything if they drive off afterwards without someone getting their number.
 

furnessvale

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Driving down a road where appropriate signs warn the driver that he cannot continue is an offence of driving without due care and attention, or worse if the driver acknowledged that he/she was aware that the vehicle was not authorised to travel on that road. We are generally talking about HGVs/PSVs here so the obstruction and disruption called by such a vehicle turning around would also be considered a traffic offence.
Ultimately, a person who by their actions demonstrates that they have insufficent attention to or knowledge of either their vehicle and/or what road signs are should need to retake their test.
If their is an industrial address beyond the warming sign, then the road beyond should have warnings of 'No Through Road for High Vehicles'.
The signs approaching a bridge are triangular information signs. The sign on the bridge itself is a circular mandatory sign.

Best of luck getting a conviction in the circumstances you describe.
 

stj

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Why dont they build robust "Goal Post" structures before bridges.I have seen them in other countries and on Chemical Plants to protect pipework from vehicles.
 

richw

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Shouldn't a driver that drives (or attempts to drive) a vehicle down a road where maximum height appropriately marked is lower than that vehicle, be given licence points for Driving Without Due Care and Attention, and of course automatically be liable for consequential damage?

There is no offence unless he actually attempts to pass under the bridge.

Many such roads have commercial premises immediately adjacent to the bridge which need servicing by HGVs.

a lot of bridge height signs are triangular warning signs and not circular prohibited signs, and as such are only advisory.
As a psv driver who drives singles and doubles, it is very obvious from the cab the differences between even single and double deckers on the same style. E200mmc and E400mmc for example have different cabs making it obvious your driving a decker with things such as periscope cameras, the stairs being visible in the internal mirrors, and that’s before you look for the height sign. Constantly checking mirrors means I see my stair case frequently
 

TrafficEng

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Driving down a road where appropriate signs warn the driver that he cannot continue is an offence of driving without due care and attention...
furnessvale and Spartacus are correct, there is no offence involved in simply driving past a warning sign (a triangular one). The key word is "warn" - the sign warns that there is a hazard ahead, but do not prohibit vehicles being driven past them.

In fact furnessvale is wrong to say it is an offence if the driver "attempts to pass under the bridge" if the signs are only triangular warning ones. It would probably only become an offence if the vehicle strikes the bridge and causes damage to it.

To illustrate the point, in some cases arch bridges are signed with two different sets of warning signs indicating different clearance available over different widths of the carriageway. A narrower vehicle can safely pass under an arch bridge (especially if in the centre of the road) when a wider vehicle of the same height couldn't. This approach wouldn't be possible if it were an offence as you describe.

The height indicated on a triangular warning sign is worked out in accordance with Chapter 4 of the traffic signs manual. It takes into account vehicles of the maximum dimensions permitted by the construction and use regulations and the possibility that a long vehicle will need greater headroom if its length spans over a dip in the road under the bridge. (a shorter vehicle would need less headroom).

Because of the numerous combinations of width and length the aim of the warning sign methodology for low bridges is to make drivers aware a hazard exists and then leave it up to them to determine whether or not their vehicle can safely pass under the bridge. The advantage of this approach is that it is not necessary to provide exemptions from a mandatory restriction for vehicles legitimately needing to travel on that road (e.g. to access property).

Passing a mandatory sign (circular) is an offence unless exemptions apply. Because it is difficult to manage and sign exemptions, it was generally the case that traffic authorities avoided the use of prohibitory height restrictions.

However, in the last decade or so the guidance and practice on bridge signing has shifted towards distinguishing between arch bridges and beam (non-arch) bridges. If a bridge has more or less equal clearance under all parts (non-arch) then Chapter 4 recommends the use of prohibitory signs, noting that a traffic regulation order is not required for signs at the bridge. An order would be required if the signs are placed at some distance from the bridge, and this order is unlikely to be made if it prohibits access to property.

...or worse if the driver acknowledged that he/she was aware that the vehicle was not authorised to travel on that road.
On the contrary, having seen and been aware of warning signs may be a valuable part of a defence against a charge of driving without due care and attention. Not seeing the signs is indicative that insufficient care and attention was given.

But the vehicle would only be not authorised to travel on that road if there was a mandatory prohibition (circular signs).

In fact - without wishing to be pedantic - a fundamental principle of highway law is that the right to pass and repass is automatic, unless expressly prohibited. A driver doesn't need to be authorised to drive on a particular (public) road, they only need to refrain from driving on a road their vehicle has been prohibited from using. The onus in on the traffic authority to inform the driver (through the use of signs) that such a prohibition exists. This is an important point, as it explains why vehicles would be allowed to drive down a road to access property, even if through passage is prevented by a low bridge.
We are generally talking about HGVs/PSVs here so the obstruction and disruption called by such a vehicle turning around would also be considered a traffic offence.
It would only be an offence for sure if that length of road had a prohibition on making u-turns, or was a one-way street. (although no offence would occur if the driver was acting under instructions from an authorised person e.g. police officer in uniform)

The offence of obstruction is one which is subject to a test of reasonableness. Unless the driver had a history of previous convictions, a charge of obstruction caused while the driver turned their vehicle around to avoid driving under a low bridge would almost certainly be laughed out of court.
Ultimately, a person who by their actions demonstrates that they have insufficent attention to or knowledge of either their vehicle and/or what road signs are should need to retake their test.
Knowledge and understanding of highway law and traffic signs is indeed woeful. Sadly the courts and driving test system doesn't have the capacity to deal with all the people who need to retake their tests.
If their is an industrial address beyond the warming sign, then the road beyond should have warnings of 'No Through Road for High Vehicles'.
This in itself would be unlawful. Such signs would need special authorisation from the relevant national authority, which is unlikely to be granted as there is already a standardised method of signing for this situation. (as laid out in Chapter 4)

Also, as part of the problem with bridge strikes involves drivers who are unfamiliar with UK signs and possibly limited proficiency in English, the use of worded-warning signs stating 'No Through Road for High Vehicles' would be a recipe for disaster and contrary to the preferred approach of using standardised pictograms.

(apologies to all for making a long first post, this is a subject I have a special interest in.)
 

TrafficEng

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Why dont they build robust "Goal Post" structures before bridges.I have seen them in other countries and on Chemical Plants to protect pipework from vehicles.
Bridge protection beams are used in some situations in the UK, but there is a cost attached, and there needs to be sufficient space to build them in.

Another approach is to use a vehicle height detector which triggers warning signs if an overheight vehicle is detected.

Similar technology is used to keep overheight vehicles out of the Rotherhithe and Blackwall tunnels. In this case it probably helps (financially) that the highway authority and structure owner are one and the same.
 

furnessvale

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In fact furnessvale is wrong to say it is an offence if the driver "attempts to pass under the bridge" if the signs are only triangular warning ones. It would probably only become an offence if the vehicle strikes the bridge and causes damage to it.
In my own defence, in #16 I did state that the sign on the bridge is a circular mandatory sign. To place a triangular sign on the bridge itself would be extremely bad practice.

I too used to have a professional interest in the matter, having been a police officer for 22 years.
 

richw

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In my own defence, in #16 I did state that the sign on the bridge is a circular mandatory sign. To place a triangular sign on the bridge itself would be extremely bad practice.

I too used to have a professional interest in the matter, having been a police officer for 22 years.

but most low Bridges only have triangular signs, why is that?
 

TrafficEng

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In my own defence, in #16 I did state that the sign on the bridge is a circular mandatory sign. To place a triangular sign on the bridge itself would be extremely bad practice.
Apologies. I'm a slow typist and you posted #16 while I was typing. I was actually referring to your #11 and I should have made it clearer I meant only if the bridge had warning signs rather than prohibitory signs.

Current guidance is to use triangular warning signs on arch bridges (including on the bridge itself) and circular signs for non-arch bridges.
 

furnessvale

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but most low Bridges only have triangular signs, why is that?
You are probably referring to arch bridges where an arbitrary width is selected to reference the height. It is quite possible that a narrower, but taller load, say the jib of an excavator, could exceed the indicated height but still pass through. No doubt the authorities are reluctant to constrain traffic unnecessarily.
 

richw

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You are probably referring to arch bridges where an arbitrary width is selected to reference the height. It is quite possible that a narrower, but taller load, say the jib of an excavator, could exceed the indicated height but still pass through. No doubt the authorities are reluctant to constrain traffic unnecessarily.

the low bridges near me all have triangles on flat decks, I’ve always found it strange
 

Lucan

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Bridge protection beams are used in some situations in the UK, but there is a cost attached
Surely less than the cost (including disruption) of a bridge strike? It would not need to be massively strong, an almighty crash would be enough to stop most cases and the upper parts of a enclosed road trailer are quite flimsy. This is the sort of thing that old rail would have been used for once.
 

TrafficEng

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Surely less than the cost (including disruption) of a bridge strike? It would not need to be massively strong, an almighty crash would be enough to stop most cases and the upper parts of a enclosed road trailer are quite flimsy. This is the sort of thing that old rail would have been used for once.
The structure would need to be strong enough that it doesn't collapse onto the road below, potentially killing or seriously injuring someone. Also, that it doesn't become a projectile with sufficient energy to damage the bridge structure, or in a possible worst-case scenario, ending up on or fouling the railway lines above.

In addition, not all high vehicles are flimsy boxes. Skip lorry lift arms and hiab-type cranes are very substantial and rigidly attached objects that are often the highest part of the vehicle they are attached to. Or it could be a load on a flat-bed. The M20 accident in 2016 was a graphic demonstration of the kind of forces involved. A length of old rail wouldn't stand a chance.
 

Lucan

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The structure would need to be strong enough that it doesn't collapse onto the road below.... Skip lorry lift arms and hiab-type cranes are very substantial
I am a structural engineer and I could provide something that would do the trick, and relatively cheaply. A cross-beam that would in the worst case break in the centre and the two pieces hinge away horizontally, for example. As long as the lorry driver hears a bang that is the fright of his life - and only stopping 80% of the strikes is better than nothing.

The M20 accident in 2016 was a graphic demonstration of the kind of forces involved
That's not relevant to the steel portal frame we are talking about. That was a cantilever reinforced concrete bridge with little or no lateral restraint to the bridge deck part that fell. The deck was just pushed off its ledges.
 

deanmachine

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Also, does the railway attempt to recover costs (whether direct costs of physical damage, or costs incurred by disruption) from the owners of the vehicles?

Well when a bus from the company I work for hit a bridge last year, the TOC effected hired us to do Rail Replacement in the effected area!
 

TrafficEng

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I am a structural engineer and I could provide something that would do the trick, and relatively cheaply. A cross-beam that would in the worst case break in the centre and the two pieces hinge away horizontally, for example. As long as the lorry driver hears a bang that is the fright of his life - and only stopping 80% of the strikes is better than nothing.
You'd be able to guarantee where those two pieces would finish as they hinged away? And in all reasonable scenarios of impact position, direction and speed?

There are images online showing the substantial nature of bridge protection beams Network Rail engineers have deemed appropriate to use to minimise the risks I outlined above. This substantial nature is also reflected in the supporting structure (and foundations if appropriate).

There are examples of impact devices located some distance away from the bridge designed to give an overheight vehicle driver exactly that kind of fright. There is one on the A616 near Creswell in Derbyshire. It is still what I'd call a substantial structure - and aesthetically not the kind of thing you'd be able to provide in many locations.
That's not relevant to the steel portal frame we are talking about. That was a cantilever reinforced concrete bridge with little or no lateral restraint to the bridge deck part that fell. The deck was just pushed off its ledges.
It was relevant as a demonstration of the forces involved when a solid part of a lorry hits a structure, and that not all lorries are flimsy boxes.

It also demonstrates the risk to other road users if an overhead structure is hit and displaced - a motorcyclist was very lucky not to be killed.
 
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