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Rural Bus stop technology

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Owen.N.Kessock

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In semi rural areas there is a fear that buses won't stop for passengers waiting at a bus stop.

Are there any systems that enables a passenger waiting at a bus stop to let the bus driver know that some one is waiting at a particular stop.
The simplest method could be pressing a button on the bus stop to light it up or maybe flash a light. More complex could be communicating electronically .

The problems in my village are bus drivers forgetting to leave the A9 to call in to the village, or where the bus stop.is on the A9 , the bus is travelling in the outside lane, and doesn't see the bus stop, or can't change lanes
 
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Busaholic

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Wow fantastic that, I bet if I suggested that idea to my local Stagecoach depot, I'd get laughed at. :(
I'd suggest trying higher up in Stagecoach than your local company, quoting the Nottingham example. NCT have a highly respected position within the industry, so you might get a considered response.
 

markymark2000

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In semi rural areas there is a fear that buses won't stop for passengers waiting at a bus stop.

Are there any systems that enables a passenger waiting at a bus stop to let the bus driver know that some one is waiting at a particular stop.
The simplest method could be pressing a button on the bus stop to light it up or maybe flash a light. More complex could be communicating electronically .

The problems in my village are bus drivers forgetting to leave the A9 to call in to the village, or where the bus stop.is on the A9 , the bus is travelling in the outside lane, and doesn't see the bus stop, or can't change lanes
I don't see why bus stops couldn't have press a button to request a bus type thing. It just makes sense but no one will trial it.
 

ChrisPJ

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I don't see why bus stops couldn't have press a button to request a bus type thing. It just makes sense but no one will trial it.

are you aware of anybody commercially offering a system of this description and how much it costs to purchase/install? If such a thing exists I bet it would take years to be paid for through fares, seeing as we’re talking about sparsely used rural locations
 

markymark2000

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are you aware of anybody commercially offering a system of this description and how much it costs to purchase/install? If such a thing exists I bet it would take years to be paid for through fares, seeing as we’re talking about sparsely used rural locations
This system has uses though on some busy routes. Faster roads where the bus stops are a bit hidden could make use of the system so it's not just really rural, middle of no where 1 bus per day routes. The A41 near Backford (9bph) but also perhaps Ince Blundell in Merseyside (bus 47 is every 20 minutes)

I don't know of a system which is currently out there as those who would have to pay would be councils and they notoriously have a habit of not wanting to pay for anything which will help public transport so on that basis, is the market there? Councils and bus operators really need to create the system themselves as then it's more likely to be implemented.
 
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I can imagine some benefits if it worked flawlessly and I know some railway stations operate on a request basis, but on the face of it this strikes me as being a similarly ridiculous argument as saying in urban areas drivers waiting in a queue of buses should be allowed to load passengers away from a bus stop.
In my opinion a bus stop is either a mutually recognised location for both drivers and passengers or the stretch of road is designated as a 'hail & ride'.
Other than for requesting special assistance I don't see this catching on. Most folk can understand the need to ring the bell inside the bus when a passenger wants off, but not the other way round.
 

Hadders

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Are there any systems that enables a passenger waiting at a bus stop to let the bus driver know that some one is waiting at a particular stop.

I find sticking my arm out as the bus approaches does the trick :lol:
 

markymark2000

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I can imagine some benefits if it worked flawlessly and I know some railway stations operate on a request basis, but on the face of it this strikes me as being a similarly ridiculous argument as saying in urban areas drivers waiting in a queue of buses should be allowed to load passengers away from a bus stop.
In my opinion a bus stop is either a mutually recognised location for both drivers and passengers or the stretch of road is designated as a 'hail & ride'.
Other than for requesting special assistance I don't see this catching on. Most folk can understand the need to ring the bell inside the bus when a passenger wants off, but not the other way round.
I have an example near me on the A41 near Backford. The bus needs to be in the right hand lane to turn right but because of the flow of traffic, buses try to move over as early as possible. If someone is at the bus stop close to the lights though, the bus then bypasses them or crosses over but it's time consuming. IF you wait to change lanes until you are at the bus stop, quite often people won't let you in because you are at zero and the road speed is like 40 so it would potentially put yourself and drivers behind at risk.
The way to combat this issue would be a signal so that if someone wanted the bus, they can get on but it doesn't needlessly delay every single bus on a 'just in case' basis.

Chester Zoo is another one. Out of opening hours, workers still want to use the buses but can't because it was delaying so many buses with no one boarding. A signal in this instance would add delay to a few trips where people were waiting but it wouldn't needlessly delay everyone else on other trips (which is the reason the times were changed to speed up journeys for the majority as demand wasn't always there and varied by day.
In Merseyside, Arriva wanted to drop Ince Blundell village to speed up journeys by 2 minutes. They wanted to run along the main road. If this signal type system was introduced, Arriva could bypass the village when no one was waiting but then divert in if people were waiting.
As well as villages just off the main road, I can see this working at tourist attractions with bus stops because the demand can vary so much (by weather, day of the week, school day/holidays and opening hours), this would help operators divert just off the main road to serve these stops when people are waiting (Legoland Windsor for example (Greenline 702/703) or Presthaven Sands (Arriva Rhyl 11 series).

This won't work when you would risk missing out lots of stops but one stop here and there can add on a few minutes to journey times. IF you can speed up the majority of journeys, operators will. A 2 minute diversion can be caught up in a fair few cases so it would make little difference but not a lot is more annoying than going around a 1 stop village, attraction or estate to then find out no one is waiting.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I find sticking my arm out as the bus approaches does the trick :lol:
I'm rather with Hadders here - why not start with the technology we've got? If the bus stop is in the wrong place, why not start by moving the bus stop to somewhere better? In the case of Ince Blundell, I can see that working - but only if a pedestrian phase was added to the A565 traffic lights to safely access a Southport-bound (so buses from Liverpool) stop.
 

Hadders

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I'm rather with Hadders here - why not start with the technology we've got? If the bus stop is in the wrong place, why not start by moving the bus stop to somewhere better? In the case of Ince Blundell, I can see that working - but only if a pedestrian phase was added to the A565 traffic lights to safely access a Southport-bound (so buses from Liverpool) stop.

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek but in all honesty I agree with this. Can you just imagine what will happen if technology is used, it won't get maintained properly then it'll fail (or fail even if it does get maintained!)

Public transport budgets are tight enough as they are without needing to spend money on this sort of stuff. Stick your arm out and if the bus stop is in the wrong place then move it!
 

markymark2000

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My comment was a bit tongue in cheek but in all honesty I agree with this. Can you just imagine what will happen if technology is used, it won't get maintained properly then it'll fail (or fail even if it does get maintained!)

Public transport budgets are tight enough as they are without needing to spend money on this sort of stuff. Stick your arm out and if the bus stop is in the wrong place then move it!
Moving bus stops is easy but you know what the oldies are like, unless it is a door to door service, they complain they will be stranded and unable to go anywhere. Bus stops also can't be moved in some cases because they are in the perfect position for a tourist attraction. You also can't just keep moving bus stops because the demand fluctuates. 'press button to light up for a bus to stop' is literally the exact same as 'the bus continues here on request to the driver' but it means people can go to the bus stop and request rather than call in advance. It keeps some services moving faster while ensuring that if a bus does have to deviate to serve an area, it has passengers waiting to board/alight.

It can't be expensive to impliment. NCTs system of 'Stop this bus' works well and could be rolled out nationwide for this type of system but those who don't have the bus operator specific apps then won't be able to stop the bus. Similarly, something like a QR code to alert the bus to stop would work but you are relying on everyone having compatible smartphones.
 

Bletchleyite

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Or you can go dead simple and copy most other European countries (and London) - the bus stops and opens the doors unless the driver can see for absolute certain that there is nobody at the stop requiring it. To alight use the bell. A much better system and far superior for PRM.

In the UK drivers seem to sometimes like sailing past other buses at the stop when they have no idea who's waiting as they can't see them, leaving able bodied people running up and down and trying to signal, and PRM missing the bus.
 

iantherev

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I thought we were taking rural here - if a bus approaches the stop in my village and finds another one in the pull-in the usual answer is the first one has broken down!
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought we were taking rural here - if a bus approaches the stop in my village and finds another one in the pull-in the usual answer is the first one has broken down!

It's not entirely unusual that a main road stop might be served by a frequent interurban route as well as a less frequent rural one, and the stop having an interurban bus in causing the rural one to fly past.
 
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It's not entirely unusual that a main road stop might be served by a frequent interurban route as well as a less frequent rural one, and the stop having an interurban bus in causing the rural one to fly past.
Well I suppose that illustrates circumstances where having a system to ensure the rural bus driver knows that passengers wish to board might be helpful.

I feel it's just far too complicated and prone to error. There would need to be clarity on what was a rural/optional stop and what wasn't. The call method would have to be infallible and available to regular and occasional travellers alike. If you're talking about services that run infrequently in rural areas, failing to pick up passengers due to a mix-up in stop designation is pretty high impact.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well I suppose that illustrates circumstances where having a system to ensure the rural bus driver knows that passengers wish to board might be helpful.

I feel it's just far too complicated and prone to error. There would need to be clarity on what was a rural/optional stop and what wasn't. The call method would have to be infallible and available to regular and occasional travellers alike. If you're talking about services that run infrequently in rural areas, failing to pick up passengers due to a mix-up in stop designation is pretty high impact.

I think you misunderstand - this would apply to all stops for all buses under all circumstances, like it does in London. There would be no optional stops at all - if the driver can't see that someone is not waiting for that bus, he stops. If he can see that nobody's there, e.g. a glass shelter that's clearly empty or a stop without a shelter with nobody there, no need to.
 

Aictos

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I find sticking my arm out as the bus approaches does the trick :lol:

As do I and I find it works pretty much anywhere even in places where it's not needed I still by force of habit do it!
 

jon0844

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I find sticking my arm out as the bus approaches does the trick :lol:

I've almost missed buses when I've had no idea where it is, visibility is poor (or the bus has not had a working screen to show the number, or has mistakenly left it saying 'out of service' but it was in fact in service but just out of the yard) and then there's also those who are visually impaired.

Of course a button is going to abused by kids, who will find it hilarious to stop buses for no reason.
 

Hophead

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Metrobus, meanwhile, have a somewhat lower-spec solution: pop into one of their travel shops and you can collect a reflective arm-band.
 

175mph

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I've almost missed buses when I've had no idea where it is, visibility is poor (or the bus has not had a working screen to show the number, or has mistakenly left it saying 'out of service' but it was in fact in service but just out of the yard) and then there's also those who are visually impaired.

Of course a button is going to abused by kids, who will find it hilarious to stop buses for no reason.
It also doesn't help when you have those buses that have flip dot displays that are poorly illuminated after dark. <(
 
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I think you misunderstand - this would apply to all stops for all buses under all circumstances, like it does in London. There would be no optional stops at all - if the driver can't see that someone is not waiting for that bus, he stops. If he can see that nobody's there, e.g. a glass shelter that's clearly empty or a stop without a shelter with nobody there, no need to.
Not my experience of using/missing buses in London, I'm afraid. But perhaps the 'board at flag' requirement is a topic for another thread. In general I agree with you that there should be no potentially ambiguous communication between passenger and driver, regardless of whether it's a rural or urban area.
 

richw

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I find sticking my arm out as the bus approaches does the trick :lol:

As a driver this works well in daylight. Dark evenings, someone all in dark clothing, and I don’t see them until the last minute. The below could be a solution

I've seen the "press a button to light up a stop light" thing in the Netherlands on main roads, but it's the only place I've seen it.
 
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I'll admit I do generally still stick my hand out, but if you read the Big Red Book (which you can find online somewhere, someone FoI-ed it) that isn't TfL's policy, which is as I outlined.
Thanks - that makes quite interesting reading. In London it seems the drivers are almost officially given more discretion about where they can board passengers (page 13, FAQ 3) - pulling up at the actual stop is viewed as a consideration for the driver rather than default case. Explains why I've often been ignored by London drivers who thought I didn't want their bus because I didn't trot down the queue of buses to board, following a breakaway cohort of other passengers. In fairness I don't have any obvious mobility impairment and could (if I felt necessary) wave my arms around like windmill sails.
I'm not very impressed with London's approach. With advice written like that, perhaps there is an argument for introducing some other method of attracting attention after all.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks - that makes quite interesting reading. In London it seems the drivers are almost officially given more discretion about where they can board passengers (page 13, FAQ 3) - pulling up at the actual stop is viewed as a consideration for the driver rather than default case.

Here's the two relevant FAQs in full with my highlighting:

2.Why should I pick up passengers if they don’t put their hand out at the bus stop?Some passengers may not know they need to put their hand out or they might be visually impaired, making it difficult for them to know which bus they should flag down. Whether it is day or night, if there is someone at the bus stop, you have to stop. If in doubt, stop. If you are sure nobody is waiting for your bus, or wants to get off, you can keep going. See ‘The basics’ page 22.

3.Do I have to stop more than once at busy bus stops?You may need to. Older passengers or those with mobility or visual impairments frequently tell us that it is hard for them to board their bus at busy bus stops. Often, this is because buses pull up behind others already at the stop, which may be some distance from where passengers are waiting.You must always make sure that passengers who want your bus have an opportunity to board before you pull away. Do not move off or pull around other buses in front of you until you have checked to see all passengers waiting for your bus have boarded.This may mean you need to pull up to the bus stop flag/post.See ‘The basics’ page 22.

This doesn't sound like what you are saying and sounds like you have experienced a driver who did not follow the rules, as they pulled off without being sure nobody at the stop required the bus. Make a formal complaint.

Of course, were it Manchester and the same situation arose, as it often does, the back bus would simply have gone flying past.

It also would be unlikely to arise in the rural context of the thread as there are precious few rural routes, so the policy would work better than London.
 

paul1609

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As a driver this works well in daylight. Dark evenings, someone all in dark clothing, and I don’t see them until the last minute. The below could be a solution
In rural Kent we don't have very much in the way of street lighting. The convention is that if you want the bus to stop you wave the light on your mobile or a small torch. Im sure that it's not an official policy but its been almost universally adopted by locals.
On my trip to Harrogate Town FC on Monday it was being used in the home end as the only available lighting in the stadium on several occasions :)
 
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