Suggestions regarding how to reduce effects of flooding

reddragon · 11 Nov 2019

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...field-and-doncaster-7-november-onwards.194811

YorksDMU said:
Unfortunately a yellow warning for yet more heavy rain, up to 30mm, widely, is now in place, from the MetOffice, for Thursday across all of these areas. I’m seeing yet more flooding, especially with up to 60mm on the higher ground, i.e. the Pennines. I hope one day it may stop raining...
I hope all the affected lines will not be too badly impacted, I guess time will tell.

This is the reality of climate change. More extreme weather events more often.

The only easy solution would be to reforest the uplands in the catchment.

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InOban · 11 Nov 2019

Reforestation is indeed the proper solution, but it will take generations to regenerate the depth of water-retaining mulch that is needed.

reddragon · 11 Nov 2019

InOban said:
Reforestation is indeed the proper solution, but it will take generations to regenerate the depth of water-retaining mulch that is needed.

If we started now, relief would start now, initially small, increased if we un-straighten the streams. There is a lot of moorland and opportunity to be had!

And before environmentalists say it will affect biodiversity, cutting the trees did that 100's of years ago!

30907 · 11 Nov 2019

ISTR this has been started above Pickering, where the beck used regularly to flood. And - despite the title - this obviously isn't just about railways!

randyrippley · 11 Nov 2019

The irony in this plan is that at the moment there is a massive deforestation project in the north to remove as much as possible of the non-native conifer plantations. Huge areas of the Lancashire and Cumbrian fells have been clear-felled.
Native trees are being planted as replacements, but they are slow growing so for a few decades the water retention capabilities will be reduced. There have been claims that the record river flows in the Lune and Ribble after Storm Desmond were partly due to this

Llanigraham · 11 Nov 2019

randyrippley said:
The irony in this plan is that at the moment there is a massive deforestation project in the north to remove as much as possible of the non-native conifer plantations. Huge areas of the Lancashire and Cumbrian fells have been clear-felled.
Native trees are being planted as replacements, but they are slow growing so for a few decades the water retention capabilities will be reduced. There have been claims that the record river flows in the Lune and Ribble after Storm Desmond were partly due to this

Much of the non-native conifer clearance is due to Larch Die-back disease, and the same is happening in much of Mid Wales. Likewise they are also planting native trees as a replacement, and around here (Hafren, Myherin, and Dyfi Forests) they have had to put in "settlement" ponds to catch the off-wash, but for 3 reasons:
1, to slow down the off-wash and gradually release it into the rivers, and
2, to reduce the acidity of the water, caused by the acidity of the pine needles , and
3, to catch the increased amount of silt that is also washed down.
They also are now leaving a larger amount of brash behind, after harvesting, as this reduces off-wash.

Meerkat · 11 Nov 2019

From reading around the subject tree planting has minimal effect unless done on a vast scale.
Rebogging the moorlands makes a difference.

Iskra · 12 Nov 2019

How is planting masses of trees going to affect the summer droughts we get?

30907 · 12 Nov 2019

Iskra said:
How is planting masses of trees going to affect the summer droughts we get?

ISTR trees need masses of water to produce leaves in spring, but much less after.

Iskra · 12 Nov 2019

30907 said:
ISTR trees need masses of water to produce leaves in spring, but much less after.

Thank you.

HSTEd · 12 Nov 2019

They should pick one of the valleys in the fells to remain as it is now, so pick the one the tourists like the most, and reforest the rest.

randyrippley · 12 Nov 2019

Llanigraham said:
Much of the non-native conifer clearance is due to Larch Die-back disease, and the same is happening in much of Mid Wales. Likewise they are also planting native trees as a replacement, and around here (Hafren, Myherin, and Dyfi Forests) they have had to put in "settlement" ponds to catch the off-wash, but for 3 reasons:
1, to slow down the off-wash and gradually release it into the rivers, and
2, to reduce the acidity of the water, caused by the acidity of the pine needles , and
3, to catch the increased amount of silt that is also washed down.
They also are now leaving a larger amount of brash behind, after harvesting, as this reduces off-wash.

That may be so in Wales, but there's no sign of any disease in the Hemlocks and similar that are being felled in the north and there are certainly no settlement ponds.
No, its quite simply a decision to clearfell the foreign trees and make money out of them at the same time

reddragon · 13 Nov 2019

As I said

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ed-by-poor-management-and-floodplain-building

“This is only a problem if you develop floodplains by building houses, businesses and factories on them, which is obviously what we have done over the years, so to some degree it’s a problem of our own making,” said Roy Mosley, the head of conservation and land management at Sheffield and Rotherham Wildlife Trust.

The risk faced by floodplain communities is exacerbated by the management of land upstream of the city. Intensive animal grazing leads to short grass and compacted soil, which is less able to absorb and hold water. There are no longer enough trees and plants to absorb rain and stop it from running straight into the river, Mosley said.

Meerkat · 13 Nov 2019

reddragon said:
As I said

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ed-by-poor-management-and-floodplain-building

This is a wildlife trust chap. He says building in the floodplain is stupid. But I bet he would get angry if it was suggested that the cities should spread out to higher ground. Unless we cull humans we have to build somewhere.

notlob.divad · 13 Nov 2019

Meerkat said:
This is a wildlife trust chap. He says building in the floodplain is stupid. But I bet he would get angry if it was suggested that the cities should spread out to higher ground. Unless we cull humans we have to build somewhere.

We could do what other countries do and build our cities vertically, then we don't require anymore land, flood plain or otherwise.

Robertj21a · 13 Nov 2019

Meerkat said:
This is a wildlife trust chap. He says building in the floodplain is stupid. But I bet he would get angry if it was suggested that the cities should spread out to higher ground. Unless we cull humans we have to build somewhere.

I think most people nowadays would understand why it's not terribly sensible to build on a flood plain.........

Leo1961 · 13 Nov 2019

Has it ever been sensible to build on a flood plain? And in which case how was it achieved?

al78 · 13 Nov 2019

Leo1961 said:
Has it ever been sensible to build on a flood plain?

Yes, if you are a developer and can purchase land on a flood plain, build houses and sell them for a profit, that way you make money and someone else takes the consequences.

Tracked · 13 Nov 2019

While probably not floodplains there's a lot of developments around Mexborough built on land near the Don, which probably won't help slowing down water running off into it.

Struner · 13 Nov 2019

HSTEd said:
They should pick one of the valleys in the fells to remain as it is now, so pick the one the tourists like the most, and reforest the rest.

& let those same tourists pay for the floodings.

HSTEd · 13 Nov 2019

Struner said:
& let those same tourists pay for the floodings.

Well the valley selection could be influenced by the quantity of valuable assets positioned downstream.

There isn't much developed below Dunnerdale for example.
So that one might be more attractive than one where flooding could impact a large town.

Meerkat · 13 Nov 2019

Is there any scope for flood relief channels for the Don etc, like the Jubilee River avoiding Windsor and the Exeter scheme?

Leo1961 · 15 Nov 2019

Listening to the news on 6music earlier there was an expert who suggested that building on flood plains was perfectly acceptable if the properties had "sacrificial basements" that could be emptied quickly if necessary, but in dry periods could be used for children's nurseries.
Does anyone have any plans for stilt houses?

underbank · 15 Nov 2019

Leo1961 said:
Listening to the news on 6music earlier there was an expert who suggested that building on flood plains was perfectly acceptable if the properties had "sacrificial basements" that could be emptied quickly if necessary, but in dry periods could be used for children's nurseries.

That's not a new idea. In the Victorian/Edwardian seaside resorts, there were rows upon rows of terraced boarding house, plus lots of other buildings such as shops, theatres, etc., with what you'd call "sacrificial basements". They'd fill when the tide was exceptionally high and then empty themselves naturally afterwards the water seeping back into the ground as they were commonly soil floored rather than concrete. It's why there'd usually be 3/4 steps up to the front door from street level. Over time, people forgot, especially when the local councils started putting in proper drainage on the streets etc., and started to use them as another room, concreting the floor, putting their electrics into the basement, etc. Then they get caught out when they flood.

DynamicSpirit · 15 Nov 2019

Leo1961 said:
Has it ever been sensible to build on a flood plain? And in which case how was it achieved?

I'm not certain, but I'm going to hazard a guess that, yes, before the industrial revolution, it may well have been sensible in some cases: At that time, the only sensible way to transport many goods would have been by boat. And people (other than the upper class) didn't have loads of possessions in their homes - certainly no carpets or electrical fittings that could be ruined by water. In that situation, I could well imagine that, for some people being occasionally flooded may well have been worth the trade-off for living near the only source of large scale trade.

Then there were also issues of needing water to grow crops. Look at the ancient Egyptians - a large part of their civilisation living in a flood plain. And I'm sure they had a good reason for not moving further away from the river!

Essan · 15 Nov 2019

Tewkesbury abbey was built on marshland in the midst of a floodplain at the confluence of 2 major rivers - and has never flooded (because it was built on an island of higher ground). The town that grew up around it is a different matter (and likely to be in the news this weekend!)

Not sure what the answer is. But reforesting upland moors wont help around here in the Vale of Evesham ....

Worst flooding since July 2007 - and rainfall has been very considerably less than we had then

GRALISTAIR · 15 Nov 2019

And as population increases it can only get worse. Uncontrolled immigration will make this so whether we like it or not. That is not being racist it is pure commonsense. If we build houses even on non-flood plains that water from rain has to go somewhere. UK is a wet climate. At one time, farmers fields etc took up the rain.

edwin_m · 15 Nov 2019

Leo1961 said:
Does anyone have any plans for stilt houses?

Just by the Trent in West Bridgford there's a surgery on stilts where you can park underneath, and no doubt many other buildings have taken account of flood risk.

radamfi · 15 Nov 2019

When trying to solve a problem, it is best to look at the experts and see how they do it. Clearly, the experts in flood defences are the Dutch.

http://davidhembrow.blogspot.com/2014/02/why-does-britain-flood-more-readily.html

The Netherlands keeps both the countryside and the towns dry. Dutch people are not told by their politicians that there is a choice of town or country because it would be devastating for the country to lose either.

A new law was created which commits the government to protecting the country from floods. While the pictures above all relate to flooding from the sea, note that the law applies equally to flooding due to rivers. The Netherlands has suffered this type of flooding in the past, but remedial measures taken against those are far in advance of what I've seen in the UK.

The Netherlands doesn't flood because rather than making excuses as happens in the UK, the infrastructure has been built to protect this country.

Tetchytyke · 15 Nov 2019

GRALISTAIR said:
And as population increases it can only get worse. Uncontrolled immigration will make this so whether we like it or not. That is not being racist it is pure commonsense.

It's pure bollocks.

The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) estimate there are 634,000 empty houses in the UK. Net migration to the UK is about 250,000 a year.
This is individuals not households; the average household has 2.3 people, so you'd see net immigration of about 100,000 households a year.

You could give every migrant household who comes to the UK a free empty house for the next six years before you'd have to even consider building a single new house.

There's no need to be building so many new houses, and certainly no need to be building them on greenfield land rather than brownfield land. It's just house builders give good "incentives" to those who make the decisions.

As for flooding, the solution is to slow the outflow from the high hills and develop ways of storing excess water safely in the upper valley floor. Partly you do that by re-bogging the moors that have been dried out for grouse hunting, and partly you do that by maintaining green space in valley floors. Flooded farmland is not a problem, it stores the water and prevents issues downriver. But when Bellway come and tarmac over the fields in the upper valley floor, that's when the issues start- the new houses get flooded, and the volume of water that would have been stored in fields goes further and faster downstream.

Suggestions regarding how to reduce effects of flooding

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