Penalty for travelling in peak on off-peak ticket

A friend inadvertently travelled on the return portion of a Off-Peak Return during peak hours, and was required to buy a new Anytime Single on the spot on the train.

As far as I'm aware the correct process is an excess fare, even onboard - is that right?

Depends on where it is.

in penalty fare areas you should really excess the ticket before boarding. However if the station has no ticket office I am not aware of any reason you can not upgrade on the train (as this is most likely to be your first chance)

Milton Keynes to Crewe, ticket office was open.

If your friend was travelling with Virgin Trains, who don't offer penalty fares, then they should have been charged the difference between the ticket held and the appropriate ticket.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but: 9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling... you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

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Now I believe that under industry rules, excessing a return to a single is 'not allowed' although this is not mentioned in the Conditions of Travel. An excess to an Anytime Single would be £26.50, but an excess to an Anytime Return would cost £115.50. However, you could argue that as this was the return leg, and therefore the outer journey had already been used, it's appropriate to not excess to a Single - effectively, the passenger now no longer holds a valid ticket for the journey that they previously made! Under that interpretation, paying for an Anytime Single in full (£89) is cheaper. I would not like to offer an assessment on what I think is 'right' in that scenario, although purely reading the Conditions of Travel in isolation would suggest that the £26.50 could be charged.

If travelling with West Midlands trains, they should have been charged a Penalty Fare of £20 or "twice the full single fare applicable", whichever is greater. In that event, my understanding is that the passenger should be given the right to pay that Penalty Fare up to the next stop (and clearly then they'd have to get off and wait for an off-peak train to complete their journey), eg, if they were stopped between MK and Rugby then it would be either £30.20 if travelling in the morning peak for their ticket or £27.40 if travelling in the afternoon peak, which are (1) twice the Anytime Day Single and (2) twice the Off-Peak Day Single to Rugby (the reason for the either/or is that this depends on the time at which they travelled). Potentially if stopped later in the journey, this Penalty Fare could be higher and therefore the Anytime Single could have been cheaper.

What time of day did this happen? There are no evening restrictions on a Crewe to Milton Keynes Off Peak Return.

If this happened at a time when restriction do apply to Off Peak tickets then I believe an excess should have been charged.

Condition 9.5 of the NRCoT states:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:

9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2. you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3. you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have

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However Condition 10 states:

10.1. Some Train Companies operate a Penalty Fares scheme. All such schemes operate on the same basis, and are approved by the Department for Transport. More information on Penalty Fare schemes and a list of the Train Companies operating such schemes can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets.

10.2. Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed on trains and stations where such schemes operate. Within the areas where such schemes operate, you may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

10.2.1. You travel on a train service without a Ticket or Permit to Travel; or

10.2.2. You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket; or

10.2.3. You travel on a train service at a time when your Ticket is not valid; or

10.2.4. You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid; or

10.2.5. You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required (for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

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Clearly 9.5.2 and 10.2.3 contradict each other but in these circumstances the outcome most favourable to the passenger must apply.

Hadders said:

What time of day did this happen? There are no evening restrictions on a Crewe to Milton Keynes Off Peak Return.

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Oh good point - I was looking at a Milton Keynes to Crewe Off Peak Return which does have evening restrictions.

cuccir said:

Oh good point - I was looking at a Milton Keynes to Crewe Off Peak Return which does have evening restrictions.

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There are no afternoon restrictions in either direction.

Could you OP please advise of:

1. Exact ticket held (from/to/ticket type/if outward or return portion was being used/price)
2. Date/day and time of service travelled on
3. Which train company operated the service
4. Details of the new ticket their friend was required to purchase (from/to/ticket type/price)

Hadders said:

There are no afternoon restrictions in either direction.

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Indeed. No WCML Off Peak tickets from MKC have evening restrictions. LNR only apply them to Super Off Peaks (do you mean one of those?) and VT are prohibited by their franchise agreement from applying them except on their small number of Super Off Peaks (though I bet that'll change with Avanti).

I'd like clarification regarding exactly what ticket was held and which train was caught (as an aside were any Railcards involved?) and exactly how much was charged, but it sounds very concerning.

cuccir said:

If your friend was travelling with Virgin Trains, who don't offer penalty fares, then they should have been charged the difference between the ticket held and the appropriate ticket.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but: 9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling... you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

Now I believe that under industry rules, excessing a return to a single is 'not allowed' although this is not mentioned in the Conditions of Travel. An excess to an Anytime Single would be £26.50, but an excess to an Anytime Return would cost £115.50. However, you could argue that as this was the return leg, and therefore the outer journey had already been used, it's appropriate to not excess to a Single - effectively, the passenger now no longer holds a valid ticket for the journey that they previously made! Under that interpretation, paying for an Anytime Single in full (£89) is cheaper. I would not like to offer an assessment on what I think is 'right' in that scenario, although purely reading the Conditions of Travel in isolation would suggest that the £26.50 could be charged.

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I struggle to understand how industry rules could be interpreted to trump 9.5 as an Anytime single is most definitely valid for the train the OP's friend used.
Why does anyone need to hold a valid ticket for a past journey? Surely the outward part of all return tickets is invalid once the outward journey is completed

OP: can I just check that your friend wasn't using a WMT routed ticket on a VT service? If not, only other thing I can think of in the absence of further information is that the person checking tickets was applying a blanket no off peaks are valid self invented policy or they applied the same time restrictions as if the ticket was issued to/from London.

gray1404 said:

only other thing I can think of in the absence of further information is that the person checking tickets was applying a blanket no off peaks are valid self invented policy or they applied the same time restrictions as if the ticket was issued to/from London.

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Or the OP's friend was travelling at a time when an Off Peak ticket wasn't valid.

jumble said:

I struggle to understand how industry rules could be interpreted to trump 9.5 as an Anytime single is most definitely valid for the train the OP's friend used.
Why does anyone need to hold a valid ticket for a past journey? Surely the outward part of all return tickets is invalid once the outward journey is completed

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I think the point being made was that if you travel on an invalid train on the return half of an Off Peak Return (much as this is an unlikely situation on the WCML from MKC for reasons given above) the excess due is from an Off Peak Return to an Anytime Return - this is not a case where you can do a "half the difference" excess, unlike route excesses. You cannot excess a Return to a Single unless you do it before outward travel has been completed (assuming it's even possible at all, which might vary by TIS).

Mostly it's cheaper to simply purchase a new Anytime (Day) Single instead of excessing both halves.

Was the OP returning home in the morning, perchance? If not the guard was enforcing restrictions that don't exist and so a refund of the additional ticket would be due. If it was a Super Off Peak Return, either an excess or an Off Peak Single (whichever was cheaper) would have been the thing to issue.

(Roll on single-fare pricing and abolish the admin fee and all this complexity just goes away... )

In the abstract case where an off-peak return ticket is used at a time not permitted, it is to be excessed to an anytime return. The amount to be charged is the full difference between the prices of the two tickets.

If this excess is greater than the cost of an anytime single ticket which would have entitled the passenger to make their intended journey, that can be sold instead. (On the outbound leg, the passenger should be asked about their intended return journey so they can be offered the right option all things considered.)

To understand what specifically went wrong here we would need to know precisely what ticket was held, what train the passenger used, and how much he or she was charged.

Posts automatically assuming the passenger travelled in the evening, that the train manager was making up rules, that a return ticket can be excessed to a single ticket, or that the passenger was using a ticket limited to a specific train company are unlikely to prove constructive.

@kingston can you please update us when you have the full information and we will reopen the thread at that time.

To contact us, please use the report button on any post in this thread (such as this one), thanks

I now understand the ticket held was:

Crewe to Milton Keynes, Any Permitted, SVR Off-Peak Return
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=CRE&dest=MKC&tkt=SVR

To be clear, the ticket was entirely valid if was used during the evening as there are no evening peak restrictions out of Milton Keynes (and any such restrictions would be unlawful as they are not permitted by fares regulation).

If the ticket was not valid, the correct course of action would be to charge an excess fare, priced at the difference in fares (at 2020 prices that would be £9.70, i.e. £74.00 - £64.30).

It is totally incorrect to charge for a new ticket.

@kingston Is there any progress in this case? Was the Rail Ombudsman contacted?

The matter should also be reported to the ORR ( [email protected] ); make it clear that the report is regarding a breach of consumer law.

Firstly in terms of evening restrictions I'm confused, the ticket restrictions state:

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45 (Afternoon restrictions do not apply on Fridays)

Surely this means there is an evening peak restriction?

I often travel say C-D on trains that run A-B-C-D which doesn't mention specifically a time restriction from C but does from A, so I read that to mean I can't join at C if the train left A at the stated time?

That's because they are confusingly using the same restriction code as tickets to London Terminals.

There is no evening peak restriction for journeys that are wholly north of Milton Keynes (inclusive); booking engines will correctly give you an itinerary (the itinerary would be evidence of a binding contract).

andythebrave said:

However, the restriction is not on trains departing but on the passenger's departure time. In this case there is no pm restriction on departing from Milton Keynes. I am assuming, of course, that the poster will be departing Euston outside the restricted hours.
There are many instances where the restriction states 'trains departing.....' but this is not one of them.

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ForTheLoveOf said:

There are many rail ticket situations where the answer depends on your interpretation of the rules. This is not one of those.

VTWC would love to restrict passengers from MKC in the evening peak, but they are banned from doing so on regulated Off-Peak Return flows because it is further from London than the WCML 'boundary' station of Watford Junction (and thus the ticket may only be restricted in the morning).

They got in trouble before for trying it on, and have corrected it since. Any spec-compliant TIS will sell you an Off-Peak Return CTR-MKC returning anytime in the evening - this carries exactly the same restriction (2C) as the ticket to EUS.

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OK. My friend was travelling in the morning peak on (mistakenly) the last peak train before it became off-peak.

kingston said:

OK. My friend was travelling in the morning peak on (mistakenly) the last peak train before it became off-peak.

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If it was the morning peak they can be charged £9.70 (2020 prices) but nothing more than that.

No charge can be made in the evening.

kingston said:

OK. My friend was travelling in the morning peak on (mistakenly) the last peak train before it became off-peak.

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What was the actual time of the train they travelled on?