Potential arrangements for extending contactless PAYG to Stevenage

plugwash · 14 Nov 2019

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stevenage-platform-5.146540/

I can't see TFL wanting to support oyster and/or tfl contactless* on only one of the two routes to stevenage.

The barrier layout will mean people changing trains between the loop and the other lines have to go through barriers, which would mean setting up the station as an out of station interchange if bringing oyster and/or tfl contactless to the area.

*As I understand it some technical limitations have essentially put a halt on oyster expansions, leading to some stations getting TFL contactless payg but not oyster.

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Meerkat · 14 Nov 2019

I was assuming Oyster would only be valid at Stevenage on the Hertford loop, and to Welwyn on the direct route. But thinking about it that would be Very difficult to represent on the maps/rules.

Hadders · 14 Nov 2019

Based on current Oyster won't go to Stevenage, it'll be contactless only.

Also I believe contactless would need to be available on all operators. It would be farcical to allow a future TfL operation of Hertford loop trains to have contactless but not allow the same method of payment on GTR/LNER services, particularly as the DfT PAYG consultation included Stevenage. The situation at Reading with GWR and contactless will give a big clue as to the direction of travel.

jon0844 · 14 Nov 2019

Extending contactless acceptance to Stevenage would almost certainly see it being added to all the other stations south. Obviously Watton-at-Stone but also Knebworth and Stevenage. This would presumably be up to TfL.

Skimpot flyer · 18 Nov 2019

If contactless were extended to Watton and Stevenage, surely it would have to be available at Welwyn North and Knebworth too? Unless the platform 5 readers are the only ones to be contactless-enabled, people heading to London would just tap-in and get a much quicker mainline train ?

Aictos · 18 Nov 2019

Skimpot flyer said:
If contactless were extended to Watton and Stevenage, surely it would have to be available at Welwyn North and Knebworth too? Unless the platform 5 readers are the only ones to be contactless-enabled, people heading to London would just tap-in and get a much quicker mainline train ?

No because the All Stations service on the Welwyn route only go as Welwyn Garden City so no requirement to extend contactless to Welwyn North or Knebworth where on the other hand the All Stations service on the Hertford route does go to Stevenage so is required.

yorkie · 18 Nov 2019

Aictos said:
No because the All Stations service on the Welwyn route only go as Welwyn Garden City so no requirement to extend contactless to Welwyn North or Knebworth where on the other hand the All Stations service on the Hertford route does go to Stevenage so is required.

If you are suggesting it makes any sense to have contactless at WGC and Stevenage but not intermediately, then I have to question your logic!

hwl · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
If you are suggesting it makes any sense to have contactless at WGC and Stevenage but not intermediately, then I have to question your logic!

Especially as GTR are fairly pro Tfl contactless etc. ...

Aictos · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
If you are suggesting it makes any sense to have contactless at WGC and Stevenage but not intermediately, then I have to question your logic!

Well seeing as the GN inners might be hived off to London Overground in the next franchise and the routes are Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hertford then it makes obvious sense to put into place a fares infrastructure to support contactless for those services.

There is absolutely no need for Welwyn North or Knebworth to see contactless especially if the only readers at Stevenage are just for Platform 5 only.

The only reason why Oyster will eventually be extended north of Radlett is not because GTR wants to but because of Luton Airport.

yorkie · 18 Nov 2019

Aictos said:
Well seeing as the GN inners might be hived off to London Overground in the next franchise and the routes are Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hertford then it makes obvious sense to put into place a fares infrastructure to support contactless for those services.

But to deny the use of services via Welwyn North is a case of the tail wagging the dog. It's a classic case of putting operational convenience before the needs and desires of customers.

Aictos said:
There is absolutely no need for Welwyn North or Knebworth to see contactless...

I fail to see why there is no "more" need for contactless at any of the other stations in the vicinity.

Aictos said:
especially if the only readers at Stevenage are just for Platform 5 only

Is Platform 5 actually going to have its own gateline? Surely not!

Aictos said:
The only reason why Oyster will eventually be extended north of Radlett is not because GTR wants to but because of Luton Airport.

The only reason is because it benefits passengers? That's a good enough reason for me! But I don't really see what that has to do with Stevenage.

hwl · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
But to deny the use of services via Welwyn North is a case of the tail wagging the dog. It's a classic case of putting operational convenience before the needs and desires of customers.

I fail to see why there is no "more" need for contactless at any of the other stations in the vicinity.

Is Platform 5 actually going to have its own gateline? Surely not!

The only reason is because it benefits passengers? That's a good enough reason for me! But I don't really see what that has to do with Stevenage.

Exactly the DfT vision has finally moved round to realise that Tfl are best placed to do smart ticketing in NSE land...
It only took them a decade!

jon0844 · 18 Nov 2019

hwl said:
Exactly the DfT vision has finally moved round to realise that Tfl are best placed to do smart ticketing in NSE land...
It only took them a decade!

The Rail Delivery Group is promoting smartcards with a new logo and a common theme on branding, with interoperability actually gaining momentum at last.

We should hear more in the coming weeks and months, including using cards on different operators.

TfL can do London and the immediate surrounds but beyond that you're probably looking at a system where you can mix pay as you go with the ability to store tickets of higher values.

hwl · 18 Nov 2019

jon0844 said:
The Rail Delivery Group is promoting smartcards with a new logo and a common theme on branding, with interoperability actually gaining momentum at last.

We should hear more in the coming weeks and months, including using cards on different operators.

TfL can do London and the immediate surrounds but beyond that you're probably looking at a system where you can mix pay as you go with the ability to store tickets of higher values.

Given the difficulties many outside GTR have with smart cards I won't hold my breath on it working well for a while on an inter TOC basis...
The £30 contractless limit is the main issue that needs to be addressed.

jon0844 · 18 Nov 2019

I've heard The Key is already working elsewhere but simply hasn't been announced yet.

Skimble19 · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
Is Platform 5 actually going to have its own gateline? Surely not!

It is indeed, at the bottom of the stairs / lift.

yorkie · 18 Nov 2019

Skimble19 said:
It is indeed, at the bottom of the stairs / lift.

and it's really planned that you can only use contactless at this platform, for travel via Hertford?

Skimble19 · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
and it's really planned that you can only use contactless at this platform, for travel via Hertford?

Not heard anything at all to suggest that will be the case, will try and find out if there’s any truth in that but I would be surprised if there was.

To be honest the further out you get the less contactless becomes worthwhile. Internal docs show that in the vast majority of cases at the recent extensions paper tickets are still best value for money, even beating The Key in a lot of scenarios (although this will change as more features are added).

Hadders · 18 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
and it's really planned that you can only use contactless at this platform, for travel via Hertford?

This is just forum wibble.

The DfT consultation of PAYG shows Stevenage as being in the PAYG area so I suspect that at some point contactless will come to Stevenage. If the GN Inners go to TfL then it will have to happen. Given that GTR will have contactless to WGC it would be inconceivable if Knebworth and Welwyn North didn't also accept contactless.

Aictos · 19 Nov 2019

Skimble19 said:
It is indeed, at the bottom of the stairs / lift.

Indeed which is what was said here in earlier posts...

what would have been easier is for Oyster to only go as far as Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North but hey ho...

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

Aictos said:
Indeed which is what was said here in earlier posts...

what would have been easier is for Oyster to only go as far as Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North but hey ho...

Easier than what? I can't imagine there is any prospect of Oyster and/or Contactless being available at Stevenage but only for travel on services to/via Watton-at-Stone. It would be absurd. If anyone is actually proposing this, please do provide a source and I'll criticise their proposals, but so far I think it may just be your own suggestion.

Hadders · 19 Nov 2019

If contactless does become available at Stevenage then it'll be great for the morning commute (season tickets to London Terminals being particularly poor value).

Off Peak and weekend travellers will generally be better off using paper tickets although you can bet that the publicity will suggest that contactless is cheaper, simpler, better value and is what passengers want. Many passengers will end up paying more than they need to.....

Wallsendmag · 19 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
If contactless does become available at Stevenage then it'll be great for the morning commute (season tickets to London Terminals being particularly poor value).

Off Peak and weekend travellers will generally be better off using paper tickets although you can bet that the publicity will suggest that contactless is cheaper, simpler, better value and is what passengers want. Many passengers will end up paying more than they need to.....

It'll cut down on operator choice though.

Hadders · 19 Nov 2019

Wallsendmag said:
It'll cut down on operator choice though.

It shouldn’t. GTR set the inter-available fare between Stevenage and London and they cannot introduce a GTR only fare.

If the inners became TfL then theoretically they could set a TfL only fare but it would need to be cheaper given that it takes twice as long.

LNER might not like it but they have to accept an Any Permitted fare, regardless of medium. We had all this previously with The Key and it ended up being accepted on LNER (or VTEC a season was)...

Wallsendmag · 20 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
It shouldn’t. GTR set the inter-available fare between Stevenage and London and they cannot introduce a GTR only fare.

If the inners became TfL then theoretically they could set a TfL only fare but it would need to be cheaper given that it takes twice as long.

LNER might not like it but they have to accept an Any Permitted fare, regardless of medium. We had all this previously with The Key and it ended up being accepted on LNER (or VTEC a season was)...

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be accepting PAYG just as they don't now. Only season are accepted with The Key. Anyway the LNER fares are cheaper.

Hadders · 20 Nov 2019

Only season tickets are available on The Key between Stevenage and London, as far as I know.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Contactless and GWR at Reading. This will give a pointer as to what might happen at Stevenage.

In reality it would be crazy for the Government to want PAYG Contactless extended across a wider area only for a train operator owned by that same Government, operating services in that very same area, to try and say we’re not going to accept it.

Then again this is railway ticketing so nothing surprises me.....

mattdickinson · 20 Nov 2019

Keygo is not accepted on EMR between Bedford and St Pancras, or on LNER between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

matt_world2004 · 20 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
Only season tickets are available on The Key between Stevenage and London, as far as I know.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Contactless and GWR at Reading. This will give a pointer as to what might happen at Stevenage.

In reality it would be crazy for the Government to want PAYG Contactless extended across a wider area only for a train operator owned by that same Government, operating services in that very same area, to try and say we’re not going to accept it.

Then again this is railway ticketing so nothing surprises me.....

The mayoral decision for the 2020 fares changes says her has agreed to accept contactless between Paddington and reading

si404 · 20 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
The situation at Reading with GWR and contactless will give a big clue as to the direction of travel.

For Luton Airport (with EMR), sure. But not being valid via Welwyn North is more akin to Reading and SWR - where PAYG won't be valid. 2 routes to London, one with validity and one without.

If the attitude towards PAYG at the Thameslink franchise continues after the refranchising, then I'd imagine that Welwyn North would be added the same time as Stevenage.

Hadders · 20 Nov 2019

Wallsendmag said:
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be accepting PAYG just as they don't now. Only season are accepted with The Key. Anyway the LNER fares are cheaper.

The LNER only fares are a complete waste of time.

I’d like to bet that the overwhelming majority of passengers buying them at Stevenage are unaware of what they’re buying, especially as the options displayed on the TVM are ‘LNER only’ and ‘.’

LNER have no trains from SVG to KGX in the morning Peak and the return service in the evening is sparse with the last train being at 21:00.

Based on current form Contactless will make sense for commuters travelling on the peak but off peak passengers will normally be better off with paper tickets.

Potential arrangements for extending contactless PAYG to Stevenage

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