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Chiltern Unit Refurbishments/Potential New Stock

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Neptune

Neptune

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The Planner said:
185 are fat boys and wouldnt work well with the embankments down there I suspect.
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They may be heavy but that is more than made up for by the much more powerful engines. Hence why they were ordered for the rather hilly transpennine routes.

The biggest problem is that in some places they do need speed differentials from other units due to their weight. They are also extremely thirsty.
 
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43096

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OliverH68 said:
Just a thought, send the soon to be released 185s to go to Chiltern.

Reform them into 4 car units, convert the 1st class area to Standard seats. You've got roughly 38 sets (so maybe 30 odd can be in service and the others as spares).

I know I'm probably thinking in la-la land but it's a good idea and makes sense. They can do 100mph so should be ok with the Chilterns!
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It doesn’t make sense at all. What are you doing with all the driving cars?
 
T

The Planner

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Neptune said:
They may be heavy but that is more than made up for by the much more powerful engines. Hence why they were ordered for the rather hilly transpennine routes.

The biggest problem is that in some places they do need speed differentials from other units due to their weight. They are also extremely thirsty.
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Other way around, they cannot use differentials at all unless things have changed.
 
Rob F

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SP differentials are odd things. I suspect there is less difference between a 185 and a Sprinter and a class 67 and a Sprinter yet 67s are allowed to use SP differentials on the Marches line.
 
E

Energy

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Bimodes because I'm not sure if diesel high speed trains are available which aren't bimode and Marylebone now the only station not electrified
 
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JonathanH

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Energy said:
Bimodes because I'm not sure if diesel high speed trains are available which aren't bimode and Marylebone now the only station not electrified
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What "High Speed Trains" are required? The High Speed Trains to Birmingham run out of Euston (and one day might run on HS2). The Chiltern line is never going to be faster than 100mph because there are no passing places (yes some could be reinstated but still wouldn't permit faster running) and the line isn't designed for faster speeds. The timetable is flighted well to maximise capacity - it needs stock much like the current 165s and 168s which have quick dwell times, not stock like 800s.
 
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Bletchleyite

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NewSt said:
What's the point in bimode when not a single place on the Chiltern Mainline is electrified?
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Because I suspect soon enough diesel transport will be outright banned from London, and given that rolling stock lasts 30-50 years that means whatever they buy now will need to handle that. So some form of electrification is inevitable, even if only as far as say High Wycombe (that being the outer end of what you might call the suburban bit on the mainline).

There is however no point whatsoever in over 100mph (or 110 at most). Assuming HS2 is built in full, there will be competing "classic line" services on the WCML as well as HS2 itself - the market may well return to more of an outersuburban commuter one as a result.
 
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fishquinn said:
No, just a few seats at the ends of the coaches. The main area in the coach remains IC70s (as shown in the photos).
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The seats used are the same as the ones used on the Night Riviera seated coaches and some of the lounge seats. Not seen those anywhere else. They seem decent to me from having spent a night in them!

(Shame they haven't binned off all the IC70s - now there's a cheap half-job!)

Having said that, it really is a classy look, isn't it? Just about the only thing in the UK which would not look out of place running around on Deutsche Bahn.
 
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jimm

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Rob F said:
SP differentials are odd things. I suspect there is less difference between a 185 and a Sprinter and a class 67 and a Sprinter yet 67s are allowed to use SP differentials on the Marches line.
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If there were as many Class 67s hammering up and down the Marches Line every day as there are 185s crossing the Pennines, I think that the people looking after the track would never have allowed 67s the benefit of SP differentials, but one or two trains each way won't dish out that much punishment.
 
rgwwfc

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CR165022 said:
I've decided to change the title
It will be interesting to know if Chiltern are thinking of getting new stock considering the amount of short formations they have and how old their current stock is. Currently, 165021 has been out of service for a few months however has been moved recently, it is unlikely if it will ever run again.
My guess to if they ever get new stock is that they will get units like the class 195, or if they get stock from another company, my guess is that they might get units from TFW such as 158s or 175s
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I'm sitting on 16
BucksBones said:
I'm sure they could make use of mk4s couldnt they? And 230s for the Risborough Aylesbury branch would free a 165 in the short term.

What's up with 165021?
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just rode 021 from wycombe to marylebone this morning so alive and well!
 
F

Flinn Reed

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Bi-modes could work on the Aylesbury via Amersham route.

I think a solution for the next franchise could be to withdraw the 165s and transfer the 168s to stopping services out of Marylebone (plus the Leamington-Birmingham stoppers). Then for mainline services, introduce some new DMU stock, or something like 175s/180s/185s/222s etc that will be available, or even some newer/refurbished coaches to work with the 68s.
 
E

Energy

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Flinn Reed said:
Bi-modes could work on the Aylesbury via Amersham route.

I think a solution for the next franchise could be to withdraw the 165s and transfer the 168s to stopping services out of Marylebone (plus the Leamington-Birmingham stoppers). Then for mainline services, introduce some new DMU stock, or something like 175s/180s/185s/222s etc that will be available, or even some newer/refurbished coaches to work with the 68s.
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Agreed but the 175s aren't really suitable in my opinion, the 180s could work but GC seem to have all of them and 222s aren't that fuel efficiency, the 185s feel too computer for mainline in my opinion but they could be used if the 168s are deemed too old.

I think new trains are best for mainline as the mk3s are old and although mk4s and 68/67 could work, there is not many free 68s available and using loco hauled is usually not preferable, 68/67s and mk3s were brought in as no other stock was available and it wasn't worth ordering something unique when it was only about 6 units. Hopefully a bimode Stadler ec250 could be ordered for mainline and maybe a bimode flirt for the 165 routes.
 
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jopsuk

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Bi-modes would make sense if there's a firm commitment to an electrification programme for the route. Suburban bi-modes could even be dual voltage if suitable changes were made to the Met to be like the sections of the District & Bakerloo shared with Overground. I can see there being pressure to "de-diesel" the sections of the route in London & Birmingham
 
E

Energy

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CR165022 said:
Weren't Chiltern going to convert 165s to have batteries or something, it was called Hydrive or something
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Correct although we haven't heard much about it recently...


jopsuk said:
Bi-modes would make sense if there's a firm commitment to an electrification programme for the route. Suburban bi-modes could even be dual voltage if suitable changes were made to the Met to be like the sections of the District & Bakerloo shared with Overground. I can see there being pressure to "de-diesel" the sections of the route in London & Birmingham
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Agreed, Marylebone is now the only London terminus to not be electrified, even if it is in the proposed Chiltern Metro section only, which seems likely, then I say bimodes are justified.
 
K

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Neptune said:
They may be heavy but that is more than made up for by the much more powerful engines. Hence why they were ordered for the rather hilly transpennine routes.



The biggest problem is that in some places they do need speed differentials from other units due to their weight. They are also extremely thirsty.
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I think the problem is the embankments , the GWR was short of cash, made from clay , which slumps , and has steep sides, built straight on soil do no base .
Repair works now being delayed due to newts etc.
So 185s , would introduce unwelcome tonne miles to the structures.
 
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Jamiescott1

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Does anyone know how many carriages chiltern are short?
Every day my service is short formed (it's usually a full and standing 6 carriage,today its only 3 carriages).
 
A

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jopsuk said:
Bi-modes would make sense if there's a firm commitment to an electrification programme for the route. Suburban bi-modes could even be dual voltage if suitable changes were made to the Met to be like the sections of the District & Bakerloo shared with Overground. I can see there being pressure to "de-diesel" the sections of the route in London & Birmingham
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Pure DMUs won't be allowed soon as de-dieselisation starts to ramp up. The 195 are (hopefully) the last ever non-upgradeable multiple units in the UK. There's no reason why purpose designed DEMUs or EDMUs cannot be as fuel efficient on a 100mph railway, and their operating life would extend beyond a future diesel cut-off date by their adaptability to bi-mode MU, EMU or BEMU.
The lack of plans to electrify the Chiltern line in the forseeable future wouldn't be an issue as new MUs could be deployed on other routes to release more plain DMUs from existing use on other lines until the line is ready for adaptable units.
 
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AM9 said:
Pure DMUs won't be allowed soon as de-dieselisation starts to ramp up. The 195 are (hopefully) the last ever non-upgradeable multiple units in the UK. There's no reason why purpose designed DEMUs or EDMUs cannot be as fuel efficient on a 100mph railway, and their operating life would extend beyond a future diesel cut-off date by their adaptability to bi-mode MU, EMU or BEMU.
The lack of plans to electrify the Chiltern line in the forseeable future wouldn't be an issue as new MUs could be deployed on other routes to release more plain DMUs from existing use on other lines until the line is ready for adaptable units.
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Agreed, it is what the drawn to Flirts largely is as they are a bimode customisable unit that can easily be turned into pure emu. That's why I'm hoping for a bimode ec250 for mainline and Flirts on the other routes for consistency as the ec250 is based on the flirt and bimode being an option.
 
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The only problem with some of the flirts is the additional platform length required for the traction unit when running as diesels. I'm sure that a 23m car could form the basis of a universal design that could be deployed wherever needed at any time in their operational life.
 
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AM9 said:
The only problem with some of the flirts is the additional platform length required for the traction unit when running as diesels. I'm sure that a 23m car could form the basis of a universal design that could be deployed wherever needed at any time in their operational life.
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How long is Chiltern's shortest platform, from my understanding all the mainline stations atleast have rather long platforms
 
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