TfL Railcard Strategy with Contactless Cards

EcsWhyZee · 15 Nov 2019

Now that Transport for London are providing stations between St. Albans and Luton Airport Parkway with a contactless-only version of the Oyster system do they currently have in place any plans to allow attaching a Railcard discount to contactless credit/debit cards?

Currently you can only attach a Railcard discount to an Oyster card, which is fair enough as most stations support the full Oyster system, however soon this won't be the case as many journeys from Luton Airport Parkway and even the western extent of Crossrail / Elizabeth Line won't support Oyster -- instead only supporting contactless credit/debit cards.

This effectively creates a two tier system in which the inhabitants of Radlett can have their 16-25 Railcards, Senior Railcard etc on their tap-in tap-out system but those of us in St. Albans cannot. Not particularly fair and only going to affect more people once the purple line is fully up and running.

If not, would anyone else on the forum be interested in contacting TfL with me to ask for answers about this?

Thanks,
XYZ

RailUK Forums

James H · 15 Nov 2019

I heard someone senior from TfL speak about this in an official forum (London Assembly meeting or similar) in the past 12 months, and they indicated that this is something that will be addressed and there is no insurmountable technical obstacle to doing so.

EcsWhyZee · 15 Nov 2019

James H said:
I heard someone senior from TfL speak about this in an official forum (London Assembly meeting or similar) in the past 12 months, and they indicated that this is something that will be addressed and there is no insurmountable technical obstacle to doing so.

That's good to hear. I don't suppose you know where I could find a transcript of this?

James H · 15 Nov 2019

I can't remember exactly where or when the meeting was, but I do remember feeling reassured that the matter was definitely in hand.

Though on the other hand in December 2017 the Mayor said that there are "currently no plans to develop the system to recognise these discounts on contactless payment cards" (source).

Although as his answer also refers to Oyster to Reading, these things can and do change.

gray1404 · 15 Nov 2019

I see no reason why I railcard discount couldn't be linked to a TfL online account and then a nominated contactless card (whichever the user wishes to use ) which is added to the same TfL online account. Given that the charging to the card takes place at the end of the day on a TfL backend system there is no reason why this isn't possible.

I think it should also be possible to load a railcard discount online, without the need to have a member of staff do it at a station. This should at least be possible to railcards purchased online given each railcard has a unique number and expiry date. Those issued at a station may be different.

Hadders · 16 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
I see no reason why I railcard discount couldn't be linked to a TfL online account and then a nominated contactless card (whichever the user wishes to use ) which is added to the same TfL online account. Given that the charging to the card takes place at the end of the day on a TfL backend system there is no reason why this isn't possible.

This wouldn't be difficult to do. The problem is how you would verify that a contactless card had a railcard discount loaded during an onboard check so inspector would know to ask for the railcard.

The OP might also want to consider another aspect of Contactless which is the hidden fares increases for passengers, particularly at weekends. Take a look at the price of paper weekend super off peak tickets compared to the price charged using contactless. Anyone using contactless at the weekend will be paying significantly more for their journey than if they buy a paper ticket. Of course the press release and publicity won't mention this, it'll say it's what passengers want. Meanwhile passengers at weekends will tap away blissfully unaware that they'll be paying far more than they need to.

See the post linked to below on the position at Brookmans Park following the introduction of contactless. I suspect it'll be similar at St Albans.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/payg-extensions-on-great-northern.190777/#post-4184734

gray1404 · 16 Nov 2019

If the system could be such where by each railcard (each railcard has a unique number and expiry date) could only be loaded to one Contactless card at any one time that would act as something of a safeguard, even if this meant that a ticket inspector wasn't able to know at the time of inspection if a railcard discount was applicable. This is similar surely to currently during a ticket check, the inspector does not know if a Contactless card as been tapped in or not. I don't think it's impossible for the railcard database for online purchases to be linked to Transport for London. Perhaps when buying/renewing a railcard it could be an option to allow the required data to be shared with TfL for the above purpose.

Even without all that thought, it should at least be possible to load a railcard discount to a registered contactless card, even if showing the railcard in person/uploading a scan of it is required. It is simply unfair that railcard holders are loosing out on the convenience of contactless and still having to top up a pre-paid card.

JonathanH · 16 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
It is simply unfair that railcard holders are loosing out on the convenience of contactless and still having to top up a pre-paid card.

Or we see a degradation of the value of railcard such that they are only valid for longer distance journeys and not local ones on which Contactless is valid.

There are a number of multi-journey tickets in the Northern PTE areas on which railcards aren't valid. I doubt there are complaints about that because it has always been the case. Apart from the fact it would be a stealth fare rise, is there any reason why railcards have to be valid on all journeys? The operators can just say that people want simple fares.

Hadders · 16 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
Or we see a degradation of the value of railcard such that they are only valid for longer distance journeys and not local ones on which Contactless is valid.

There are a number of multi-journey tickets in the Northern PTE areas on which railcards aren't valid. I doubt there are complaints about that because it has always been the case. Apart from the fact it would be a stealth fare rise, is there any reason why railcards have to be valid on all journeys? The operators can just say that people want simple fares.

Journeys such as St Albans to St Pancras, Brookmans Park to Moorgate or coming soon Reading to Paddington are not multi-journey. Some of these are longer distance journeys, not a short hop on the Underground or metro rail service.

The concern is that the TOCs aided and abetted by the DfT will say it's simplification but fail to mention the huge prices that often come with contactless. In some cases more than 100% increase....

JonathanH · 16 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
The concern is that the TOCs aided and abetted by the DfT will say it's simplification but fail to mention the huge prices that often come with contactless. In some cases more than 100% increase....

Yes, it would be a convenient strategy to allow the use of Contactless, let it become the norm for these journeys, then withdraw the current fare structure on the grounds of simplicity without ever letting railcard discounts become valid.

I don't think TfL will move on railcard discounts on Contactless until the results and outcomes of DfT's PAYG consultation are known.

gray1404 · 16 Nov 2019

In that case let's be grateful we still have railcard discounts on Oyster for many, but not all, journeys where non railcard users can use contact less.

Has there been any proposals by TfL to get rid of Oyster totally and it to be Contact less theoughout?

jfollows · 16 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
Has there been any proposals by TfL to get rid of Oyster totally and it to be Contact less theoughout?

I have no insight into TfL's plans, but I think having to pay back the £400 million in cash which TfL currently holds on behalf of Oyster card users would be a strong disincentive to their scrapping it totally.

Hadders · 16 Nov 2019

Oyster won’t be going anywhere any time soon. It’ll always be needed for passengers like children.

Incidentally not all railcards can be added to Oyster. F&F, Two Together and Network Railcards cannot be put into Oyster.

A Challenge · 16 Nov 2019

Hadders said:
Incidentally not all railcards can be added to Oyster. F&F, Two Together and Network Railcards cannot be put into Oyster.

Those Railcards are either multiple-person Railcards, or, in the case of the Network Railcard, has a minimum fare that would make the Railcard virtually useless on oyster fares and would be very difficult to implement.

Hadders · 16 Nov 2019

A Challenge said:
Those Railcards are either multiple-person Railcards, or, in the case of the Network Railcard, has a minimum fare that would make the Railcard virtually useless on oyster fares and would be very difficult to implement.

I posted this for the avoidance of doubt in case anyone though that all railcards could Ben added to Oyster. In the case of them Network Railcard I wonder if they could apply a discount at weekends when there is no minimum fare, although I admit TfL wouldn’t wish to do so.

MikeWh · 16 Nov 2019

In response to various points raised.

1) No, Oyster will not be discontinued. Kids, overseas visitors without contactless (eg USA), adults who can't have contactless for whatever reason. It's not going to happen.
2) TfL definitely want to enable travelcard seasons to be held against contactless cards, rather than just weekly capping. The main barrier as far as I know is how to deal with cards swallowed by ATMs, stolen, or replaced for any other reason.
3) To enable railcard discounts the software in the RID needs to cope with another list. It already has a whitelist facility (used during the trial) and a blacklist facility. The inspector needs to have a way of knowing to ask for a discount entitlement.
4) Oyster is supposed to be moving to the same back-office model that contactless uses. When that happens it will be valid over the same area as contactless. It's been an ongoing project for a number of years so there must be some significant barrier. Possibly the fact that if the central system is the master it won't be possible to return the balance left during the touch out.
5) Many of these issues may well have been solved by now if that idiot Mayor hadn't slashed TfL's income.

Afterthought:
6) when everything is back-office it may be possible to allow Network Cards to work on weekends only, or even have a third fare rate for super off-peak at weekends.

paddington · 17 Nov 2019

jfollows said:
I have no insight into TfL's plans, but I think having to pay back the £400 million in cash which TfL currently holds on behalf of Oyster card users would be a strong disincentive to their scrapping it totally.

How much of this is held on anonymous oyster cards and thus impossible to pay back?

James H · 17 Nov 2019

In 2014 TfL - via Boris Johnson - said that it would be happy to introduce weekend Oyster discounts for Network Railcard holders, but the TOCs were blocking it:

In the case of the Network Railcard, while TfL is keen for this to happen, the Train Operating Companies are unwilling to consider an additional Oyster discount - even though it could be limited automatically to apply at the weekends only.

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2014/5085

MikeWh · 17 Nov 2019

James H said:
In 2014 TfL - via Boris Johnson - said that it would be happy to introduce weekend Oyster discounts for Network Railcard holders, but the TOCs were blocking it:

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2014/5085

Interesting. That could be quite useful.

JonathanH · 17 Nov 2019

James H said:
In 2014 TfL - via Boris Johnson - said that it would be happy to introduce weekend Oyster discounts for Network Railcard holders, but the TOCs were blocking it:

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2014/5085

One unresolved issue is how to deal with the ability to buy discounted tickets for an accompanying passengers.

Hadders · 17 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
One unresolved issue is how to deal with the ability to buy discounted tickets for an accompanying passengers.

Gold Cards have the same issue but this hasn't stopped them from being able to be added to Oyster.

Bletchleyite · 17 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
One unresolved issue is how to deal with the ability to buy discounted tickets for an accompanying passengers.

How's it done (or not done) for the Disabled Persons Railcard which offers discount for one other adult as a companion/carer (regardless of the level of need for such)?

MikeWh · 17 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
One unresolved issue is how to deal with the ability to buy discounted tickets for an accompanying passengers.

If you are talking tickets, bought in advance, then that is one thing. PAYG where more than one user has to stay together is a completely different kettle of fish.

James H · 18 Nov 2019

The answer to the OP is provided here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfl-looking-at-creating-a-new-type-of-smart-card.195323/

EcsWhyZee · 18 Nov 2019

Medium term! I assume that means a few years

Belperpete · 19 Nov 2019

If you are a holder of an Oyster card with a railcard discount, how do you make one of these journeys for which only contactless is available? If you use contactless then you won't get the discount, so presumably buying a paper ticket is the best option. Can you buy a paper ticket with a railcard discount if starting your journey at an underground station?

If you are going to be making other journeys the same day, and pay for those other journeys using Oyster, by splitting the payment methods you won't get the benefit of price-capping. If you know that you are likely to be making other journeys, would it be better to buy a paper daily travel card and zone 6 to xxxxx extension ticket with railcard discount?

higthomas · 19 Nov 2019

Belperpete said:
If you are a holder of an Oyster card with a railcard discount, how do you make one of these journeys for which only contactless is available?

Same as you would whever oyster isn't available, use paper.

Belperpete said:
If you use contactless then you won't get the discount, so presumably buying a paper ticket is the best option.

A lot of the time, yes.

Belperpete said:
Can you buy a paper ticket with a railcard discount if starting your journey at an underground station?

Normally no.

Belperpete said:
If you are going to be making other journeys the same day, and pay for those other journeys using Oyster, by splitting the payment methods you won't get the benefit of price-capping. If you know that you are likely to be making other journeys, would it be better to buy a paper daily travel card and zone 6 to xxxxx extension ticket with railcard discount?

Sometimes, yes. Otherwise splitting is sometimes best.

moderator edit: inline replies are not accepted; please use the quote & reply buttons instead

Belperpete · 19 Nov 2019

I was going to say that they seem to be making life difficult for Oyster-card holders, but I suppose it is no different to what it was before when travelling to or from an out-of-zone station. It has been made easier for contact-less payers to these stations, but no change for those of us with discounted Oystercards.

kristiang85 · 13 Aug 2020

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I didn't see much point in starting a new one.

I didn't actually realise that you couldn't load railcards onto contactless; I asked someone at the station to do it with my Gold Card last week (I swapped my usual season ticket for a cheap one to retain the benefits, but now I need to pay for London travel individually for the first time in years, so I'm a bit rusty on this!).

They told me to phone TFL. So I phoned TFL, and they said it was not possible and I'd have to get an Oyster card. So this morning on my now-weekly visit to London I purchased an Oystercard, and they said I needed to register it. So I registered it on the site on my phone there and then, but this rejected me as I hadn't used it yet. So I went back to the staff member who said that it takes 48 hours from purchase to register (I don't understand that?). Thus after wasting so much time going through all of this, I'm still nowhere near getting a discount loaded onto my fares in London.

Does anybody know if TFL are going to make this any more user-friendly anytime soon? Or am I missing a trick somewhere?

Bletchleyite · 13 Aug 2020

"New Oyster" should solve this, though I don't quite know when it's due to arrive. That will move all processing into the back-office, with Oyster cards themselves being simple RFID type cards.

TfL Railcard Strategy with Contactless Cards

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member