• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bussnapperwm

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2014
Messages
1,506
Does anyone know if the Bordesley Parly ran today? If not then it'd be the first Saturday in years it's not run.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
Almost everything from Euston and Birmingham New Street to Northampton cancelled this evening, including the last train.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,748
Can anyone explain what happened with the “non strike workers refusing to go over the picket fence”???
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,546
Can anyone explain what happened with the “non strike workers refusing to go over the picket fence”???

Train drivers refused to cross the guard's picket lines. I'm not entirely sure why they're surprised given Merseyrail's drivers did the same and it was WCML South crews in the 90s who sat in their trains when they attempted DOO-P and refused to move without guards.
 

oversteer

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2011
Messages
725
Isn’t that breach of contract, possibly even illegal? Assuming it wasn’t voluntary RDW or whatever
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,181
Isn’t that breach of contract, possibly even illegal? Assuming it wasn’t voluntary RDW or whatever

where drivers of RMT were also balloted, ASLEF drivers can also choose to strike as the company doesn’t know which union you belong to and can’t penalise. However absolutely no hardship payment can be made, so effectively ASLEF drivers are worse off than the guards they are supporting.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,641
Isn’t that breach of contract, possibly even illegal? Assuming it wasn’t voluntary RDW or whatever

Refusing to cross the picket line would be deemed as joining the strike. From https://www.gov.uk/if-your-business-faces-industrial-action/nonunion-employees-and-strikes
Non-union staff and striking
If non-union members go on strike, they are protected from dismissal and have the same rights as union members, as long as the industrial action is lawful.
I assume the drivers would count as non-union for these purposes as they’re not part of the union that’s called the strike.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,937
Refusing to cross the picket line would be deemed as joining the strike. From https://www.gov.uk/if-your-business-faces-industrial-action/nonunion-employees-and-strikes

I assume the drivers would count as non-union for these purposes as they’re not part of the union that’s called the strike.
Non-union for these purposes means not in any union. It may seem perverse, but it excludes members of other unions not involved in the dispute, but in the grades as those in dispute. Therefore it excludes drivers in ASLEF.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,937
Isn’t that breach of contract, possibly even illegal? Assuming it wasn’t voluntary RDW or whatever
Striking is a breach of contract, even backed by a ballot, but is protected from the threat of dismissal for the first 12 weeks from the start of any period of strike action.
 

virgintrain1

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2011
Messages
207
["LowLevel, post: 4290948, member: 22586"]Train drivers refused to cross the guard's picket lines. I'm not entirely sure why they're surprised given Merseyrail's drivers did the same and it was WCML South crews in the 90s who sat in their trains when they attempted DOO-P and refused to move without guards.[/QUOTE]

Pitty the Southern drivers weren't as supportive.
 

gazzaa2

Member
Joined
2 May 2018
Messages
829
Train drivers refused to cross the guard's picket lines. I'm not entirely sure why they're surprised given Merseyrail's drivers did the same and it was WCML South crews in the 90s who sat in their trains when they attempted DOO-P and refused to move without guards.

The guards aren't going to stay there every Saturday, particularly in December. When Northern decided to strike every Saturday they made their presence felt the first week or two and that was it.
 

dangie

Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,181
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
Knowing there is not going to be a service on the Chase Line to and from Rugeley was actually a plus point for Rugeley passengers who usually turn up 'hoping' there is going to be a service.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
The guards aren't going to stay there every Saturday, particularly in December. When Northern decided to strike every Saturday they made their presence felt the first week or two and that was it.
Really? I know on the West side all depots had picket lines everyday of the strikes.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
At least I know not to bother with the train on Saturdays now, so it's the car, again.
Many people must be fed up with the unreliability of the railways nowadays, there's been plenty of industrial action across the country in recent years and the continuing cancellations due to lack of train crew make trips more stressful than they should be.
 

gazzaa2

Member
Joined
2 May 2018
Messages
829
At least I know not to bother with the train on Saturdays now, so it's the car, again.
Many people must be fed up with the unreliability of the railways nowadays, there's been plenty of industrial action across the country in recent years and the continuing cancellations due to lack of train crew make trips more stressful than they should be.

Saturday is my leisure day and I like to groundhop with football and go to different places on the train, it hasn't half got the worse the last year or two. Overcrowded trains all over the country, any weather abnormality causing chaos, signal/wiring failures, tresspassers on the line, staff not turning up to work meaning more and more trains cancelled, old rolling stock, not enough carriages. All things which make the journey more unpleasant as they're even busier when you actually get on a train. Even the WCML has gone to hell lately and seems to be badly creaking. HS2 still years away as well.

The state of the trains at the moment must be putting even more pressure on the roads, especially in the north and midlands.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,937
Saturday is my leisure day and I like to groundhop with football and go to different places on the train, it hasn't half got the worse the last year or two. Overcrowded trains all over the country, any weather abnormality causing chaos, signal/wiring failures, tresspassers on the line, staff not turning up to work meaning more and more trains cancelled, old rolling stock, not enough carriages. All things which make the journey more unpleasant as they're even busier when you actually get on a train. Even the WCML has gone to hell lately and seems to be badly creaking. HS2 still years away as well.

The state of the trains at the moment must be putting even more pressure on the roads, especially in the north and midlands.
It actually amazes me that passenger numbers are still increasing across the UK.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,546
["LowLevel, post: 4290948, member: 22586"]Train drivers refused to cross the guard's picket lines. I'm not entirely sure why they're surprised given Merseyrail's drivers did the same and it was WCML South crews in the 90s who sat in their trains when they attempted DOO-P and refused to move without guards.

Pitty the Southern drivers weren't as supportive.[/QUOTE]

They tried and got burned.

It has to be absolutely nothing to do with their union otherwise they leave themselves open to legal action and huge damages for taking industrial action without a ballot.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,124
It actually amazes me that passenger numbers are still increasing across the UK.
Perhaps all the additional services that have been specified in recently awarded franchise’s have a lot to do with that.
 

gazzaa2

Member
Joined
2 May 2018
Messages
829
It actually amazes me that passenger numbers are still increasing across the UK.

People are encouraged to leave their cars/stop flying for domestic flights but then the trains can't cope. They're always packed out on the weekend and that's before you factor in events like football/rugby, christmas markets, half term, summer holidays, hot weather. It's not fit for purpose as it is.

City centre living is a big thing now. Cities like Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham are having a population explosion in the centre, plus all the students (and an improved young person's railcard has added more passengers) and if you live in a big city centre you're more likely to use public transport. Try getting on a train at New Street, Leeds or Manchester though. it's a nightmare. Incompetent TOCs like WMR making ridiculous decisions exacerbates this.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I don't suppose even LNR management really expected that they'd be able to run that emergency timetable.

Plenty of precedent for that then.

They are wilful liars. Release a timetable you CAN run (even if that's "nowt") and add to it if more staff show up.

This is beyond even the worst so far. The franchise needs withdrawing now and vesting in DOR.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
It's not that, several drivers have not crossed the picket lines at various depots.

Isn't that illegal though, the Drivers haven't been balloted and hence cannot join in with the industrial action?
 

Silverlinky

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
680
How would that change things ?
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the whole guards dispute is DFT led, I mean, many franchises with different owning companies....
How would putting the DFT in charge of the individual franchises make things better?
 

Silverlinky

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
680
Isn't that illegal though, the Drivers haven't been balloted and hence cannot join in with the industrial action?
I would have thought it would at least be classed as awol...or whatever term they’d use for it, and then dealt with by whatever procedure that have for dealing with such instances? Disciplinary?
 

8J

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2009
Messages
643
Isn't that illegal though, the Drivers haven't been balloted and hence cannot join in with the industrial action?

RMT balloted their driver members hence why ASLEF drivers can refuse to cross picket lines.

The company do not know what union individual drivers are members of since the unions went away from the salary deduction to direct debit for membership subs.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,124
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the whole guards dispute is DFT led,
Isn’t this particular dispute more RMT internally led,? given they’d essentially signed a framework agreement with the TOC 18 months earlier that more militant factions then opted to overturn
 
Last edited:
Joined
31 Jul 2010
Messages
359
["LowLevel, post: 4290948, member: 22586"]Train drivers refused to cross the guard's picket lines. I'm not entirely sure why they're surprised given Merseyrail's drivers did the same and it was WCML South crews in the 90s who sat in their trains when they attempted DOO-P and refused to move without guards.

Pitty the Southern drivers weren't as supportive.[/QUOTE]

A lot of them were particurlarly on the South Coast however the main problem was a lot of the South London Driver Depots where they either had purely DOO work or very little conventional working so they took the view it was not their dispute. This and the fact the DfT was bankrolling GTR and the 377s were already enabled for DOO. To be fair though I do not think the RMT were particurlarly blameless, as had they been a bit more clever at the time they could have got a few more concessions which I think they now realise.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top