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Trolley buses

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One of my earliest memories is my mother telling me this would be my last ride on a trolley bus as they were taking them off, I was really upset and thought it meant we would never be able to go into Newcastle, I had no awareness of diesel buses.

Anyway, with the modern push for low emissions would some kind of hybrid diesel electric bus make sense? Not the battery type, they don't seem able to run very far on the battery, but something that could draw power externally. Is there anyway a modern vehicle could run like this without a return to masses of cabling hanging in every street?
 
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Spoorslag '70

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Yes!

Solingen (in Germany) has a pretty big (as far as western&central European systems go) trolleybus system and they are currently starting to convert normal bus routes to a system called BOB (Batterie-O-Bus). The batteries are loaded whilst the buses are under the wires and then the stored enegry can be converted to kinetic energy for unelectrified routes. All other trolley are fitted with a small diesel pack, which made some small wireless extensions possible (e.g. in Burg or from Vohwinkel Schwebebahn to the railway station).

Other solutions in use include opportunity charging (usualy with loaders installed at each terminus, but some also feature ones at bigger interchanges etc.), but you will need turnround times that are long enough for this to be useful.
 

edwin_m

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As I've posted many times before, trolley buses have many of the disadvantages of trams (high vehicle cost, need fixed supply) without the advantages (larger than a road vehicle so less operating cost per passenger). Even when electrically powered they still have local emissions from tyre particulates, and they probably use more energy than a tram. So it's quite difficult to find a niche where the trolleybus is the right answer. The best chance would probably be a small city with severe pollution problems and/or steep hills.
 

DavidGrain

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Trolley buses really are obsolete technology. However you might be interested in this photo I took at Eurobus 2016DSCN2238 Small.JPG

For more information and a demonstration of a trial see
 

bluenoxid

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In certain niche situations, they may do well in a feasibility study particularly as Edwin_m points out. The challenge for light rail is the heavy infrastructure work required to the road surface, which a trolley bus doesn’t require as much of.

I have seen proposals to electrify motorways in Germany, which buses/long distance coaches might benefit from.

Connected to optical guidance tech or guided bus ways, the opportunities are there.

However, I just don’t see any opening in the UK. The experience of Leeds with NGT has not been good.

I prefer the system put forward by David Grain
 

radamfi

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Pantograph charging is now in operation in many locations across Europe and in the Netherlands it is particularly widespread. Harrogate is the only location in the UK currently using this as far as I know.
 

bluenoxid

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There have been a number of trials across the country. I understand that the next place to benefit is car park buses at Birmingham Airport, which were expected to launch this month when it was announced in the spring. Has anyone got any more information about the launch of these?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Six weeks before Britain's last trolley buses were withdrawn in Bradford in 1972, a boom became dewired, swung out, hit a lamp post, snapped off and flew into a child sitting on a bench nearby. The child sadly was killed. Bradford's trolley buses lost a lot of local affection that day.

Trolley buses still run at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum (between Doncaster and Scunthorpe) - and also ran for a short period at the ill-fated Transperience museum near Bradford.

http://www.sandtoft.org.uk/
 

AY1975

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Trolley buses still run at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum (between Doncaster and Scunthorpe) - and also ran for a short period at the ill-fated Transperience museum near Bradford.

http://www.sandtoft.org.uk/

Yes, and at the Black Country Living Museum in Dudley (www.bclm.co.uk) and East Anglia Transport Museum in Lowestoft (www.eatransportmuseum.co.uk). Both these sites also have trams.

Beamish open air museum in County Durham has a Keighley trolleybus dating from 1924, but I think it's a long-term restoration project.
 

gordonthemoron

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I have seen proposals to electrify motorways in Germany, which buses/long distance coaches might benefit from.

There is OHLE on the Autobahn between Frankfurt Airport and Darmstadt, I don't know what for

Newcastle NSW has a small tram line which has very little OHLE but it does have chargers at each stop which the trams attach to using their pantographs
 

90019

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Tom B

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SYT trialled a Dennis Dominator trolleybus in the 80s I believe.
 

Shaun_92

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SYT trialled a Dennis Dominator trolleybus in the 80s I believe.
Here is a photo of SYPTE 2450 at Sandtoft, it is currently undergoing repairs to bring back to running & passenger service at the Museum.
69561191_10219981796365435_1421089147921104896_o.jpg

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Mag_seven

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johnnychips

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Here is a photo of SYPTE 2450 at Sandtoft, it is currently undergoing repairs to bring back to running & passenger service at the Museum.
69561191_10219981796365435_1421089147921104896_o.jpg

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Yes, it ran from Doncaster depot across the road and along the ‘straight mile’ semi-private road parallel to the racecourse final straight. At the time it was considered a fob-off to Doncaster to compensate for all the money they were spending on Supertram in Sheffield.
 

bluenoxid

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There have been a number of trials across the country. I understand that the next place to benefit is car park buses at Birmingham Airport, which were expected to launch this month when it was announced in the spring. Has anyone got any more information about the launch of these?

Looks like they (electric pantograph charged battery buses) have taken off at Birmingham Airport

https://cbwmagazine.com/electric-take-off/
 

dm1

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If used correctly trolleybuses are far from obselete.

In-Motion-Charging (IMC) is in many cases the simplest and most efficient way to reduce bus emissions in cities - you have the advantage of fully electric operation with no restrictions on charging time and range whilst avoiding the enormous weight of a large battery that is otherwise needed.

The infrastructure costs are slightly higher, but when you have more than about 8 buses per hour running on a section of route that pays for itself (trolleybuses are cheaper and last longer than battery and diesel buses - for the former simply because far fewer of them are needed to run the same service ). They are also significantly quieter than diesel buses and have better acceleration and braking performance (particulates are lower than a diesel bus because almost all braking is regenerative nowadays)

If space permits trolleybuses can be biarticulated (bendy busses with two bends) significantly increasing capacity (this can be done in theory with diesel buses but the result is generally heavy and underpowered)

There is no longer any need for overhead wires that are anything but plain line (and thus relatively unobtrusive) - as the vast majority of complex junctions in the wiring can be avoided using the battery. The trolley poles themselves have been improved significantly as well, meaning dewirements are far less likely, and when switching from the battery to the wires, they can (given a simple triangular guide at the right place) reattach themselves to the wires automatically.

There seems to be an aversion in the UK to new trolleybus networks - the expertise is no longer there, but for the cities in Europe that use (and maintain) them they work in extremely well. These include Zürich, Geneva, Bern, Luzern, Salzburg, Rome, Solingen, Essen, Wuppertal and many others.

London would benefit massively were they to be reintroduced on the most frequently served corridors - the photo above shows the new routemasters could be converted into trolleybuses fairly easily by fitting poles and replacing the diesel motor with a battery.
 

AlbertBeale

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If used correctly trolleybuses are far from obselete.

In-Motion-Charging (IMC) is in many cases the simplest and most efficient way to reduce bus emissions in cities - you have the advantage of fully electric operation with no restrictions on charging time and range whilst avoiding the enormous weight of a large battery that is otherwise needed.

The infrastructure costs are slightly higher, but when you have more than about 8 buses per hour running on a section of route that pays for itself (trolleybuses are cheaper and last longer than battery and diesel buses - for the former simply because far fewer of them are needed to run the same service ). They are also significantly quieter than diesel buses and have better acceleration and braking performance (particulates are lower than a diesel bus because almost all braking is regenerative nowadays)

If space permits trolleybuses can be biarticulated (bendy busses with two bends) significantly increasing capacity (this can be done in theory with diesel buses but the result is generally heavy and underpowered)

There is no longer any need for overhead wires that are anything but plain line (and thus relatively unobtrusive) - as the vast majority of complex junctions in the wiring can be avoided using the battery. The trolley poles themselves have been improved significantly as well, meaning dewirements are far less likely, and when switching from the battery to the wires, they can (given a simple triangular guide at the right place) reattach themselves to the wires automatically.

There seems to be an aversion in the UK to new trolleybus networks - the expertise is no longer there, but for the cities in Europe that use (and maintain) them they work in extremely well. These include Zürich, Geneva, Bern, Luzern, Salzburg, Rome, Solingen, Essen, Wuppertal and many others.

London would benefit massively were they to be reintroduced on the most frequently served corridors - the photo above shows the new routemasters could be converted into trolleybuses fairly easily by fitting poles and replacing the diesel motor with a battery.

I second this proposal for trolleybuses to be reintroduced in busy areas of London. And of course the "new routemasters" already have batteries as well as diesel engines [hence they don't need to be added in place of the diesel engines]; so removing the diesel engine saves weight/space to (more than?) make up for any extra electrical equipment relating to the overhead connections.
 

Busaholic

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I second this proposal for trolleybuses to be reintroduced in busy areas of London. And of course the "new routemasters" already have batteries as well as diesel engines [hence they don't need to be added in place of the diesel engines]; so removing the diesel engine saves weight/space to (more than?) make up for any extra electrical equipment relating to the overhead connections.
And I third it, and will be more specific about which TfL routes they should be (re)introduced to; as it happens, I believe they are currently operated by so-called new routemasters. The routes are the EL1, the EL2 and the EL3, with perhaps the 267 in W/SW London also coming into consideration. The latter was, of course, previously the 667 trolleybus route which existed to the very last day of London trolleys. Even the EL routes would pass along stretches of road previously well used to seeing trolleybuses e.g. Barking to Ilford.
 

radamfi

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Is there any need for trolleybuses now we have pantograph charging? Arnhem has a fair-sized trolleybus network but the rest of the country is busy installing pantograph charging locations. Where you already have a trolleybus network you might as well use it for In Motion Charging for the rest of the buses and in Arnhem that is the plan.
 

dgl

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I suppose the advantage that a trolleybus has over batteries and chargers is efficiency, converting electricity to chemical energy and back again has not insubstantial losses.
 

dm1

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Is there any need for trolleybuses now we have pantograph charging? Arnhem has a fair-sized trolleybus network but the rest of the country is busy installing pantograph charging locations. Where you already have a trolleybus network you might as well use it for In Motion Charging for the rest of the buses and in Arnhem that is the plan.
The advantage of trolleybuses is that you don't need to stop - you charge whilst on the move.

With pantographs you either have to have longer dwell times where the pantographs are located, or you need significantly beefed up power supplies that can supply a lot of power in a short amount of time, also increasing the peakiness of the load on the grid.

In contrast whith IMC the trolleybuses draw a more or less constant (and smaller) amount of power, and if used well the number of buses connected at any one time will be more or less constant, so the load in the grid is more or less constant.
 

radamfi

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The advantage of trolleybuses is that you don't need to stop - you charge whilst on the move.

With pantographs you either have to have longer dwell times where the pantographs are located, or you need significantly beefed up power supplies that can supply a lot of power in a short amount of time, also increasing the peakiness of the load on the grid.

In contrast whith IMC the trolleybuses draw a more or less constant (and smaller) amount of power, and if used well the number of buses connected at any one time will be more or less constant, so the load in the grid is more or less constant.

The advantages of trolleybuses are well known, but can installation of wires be justified when there is now a reasonable alternative? Even trams are trying to avoid wires nowadays, for example Birmingham.
 

dm1

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I personally think so. Yes there alternatives, and there are scenarios where they are more suitable than a trolleybus (such as the Birmingham Airport shuttles above) , but equally there are many situations where a trolleybus will continue to be the better solution.

For one, the environmental impact of large batteries everywhere is huge - when that can be reduced by making better use of smaller ones.

Also, charging a battery quickly is in almost all cases going to be less efficient than charging more slowly.

If the aim is to electrify as much of the public transport network as possible, at the lowest lifetime cost trolleybuses will continue to be a good choice.

In contrast to battery buses, trolleybuses are a tried and tested technology that is mature and works well.

Wires are also not always a disadvantage. It is surprisingly useful to be able to look at a street and realise "hey, a bus runs here". In Birmingham's tram extension the problem was avoiding wires in front of listed buildings. There are many such buildings in London, but equally there are many areas where wires will not negatively affect the streetscape in any way. Most of the lampposts that they could be mounted from are there in any case.
 

edwin_m

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Most of the lampposts that they could be mounted from are there in any case.
You can't attach trolleybus (or tram) overhead to an existing lighting column. They are far too weak to withstand the stresses and usually also designed to deform if hit by a vehicle, whereas an overhead line support needs to stay up. Even in the few places where the original tram/trolleybus poles are still extant, a combination of improved safety standards and corrosion over decades makes it highly unlikely they would be useable.
 

dm1

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You can't attach trolleybus (or tram) overhead to an existing lighting column. They are far too weak to withstand the stresses and usually also designed to deform if hit by a vehicle, whereas an overhead line support needs to stay up. Even in the few places where the original tram/trolleybus poles are still extant, a combination of improved safety standards and corrosion over decades makes it highly unlikely they would be useable.
Maybe that's true in London - but it's definitely possible to integrate street lighting into a support column - so even if you had to replace them they wouldn't take up any additional space on the street.

The wire supports would need to deform in a collision as well - equally you don't want a street light to fall over if something hits it, so (aside from the additional lateral forces) I don't think there is all that much difference, assuming the columns are correctly specified for their intended use.

There's definitely one location I know of (outside London and outside the UK) where the street lighting columns were designed with passive provision for trolley wires to be installed at a later date (which is planned within the next 5 years). Again, the lack of a single modern functioning trolleybus network in the UK makes it difficult to tell what rules would apply in that respect.
 

carlberry

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Maybe that's true in London - but it's definitely possible to integrate street lighting into a support column - so even if you had to replace them they wouldn't take up any additional space on the street.

The wire supports would need to deform in a collision as well - equally you don't want a street light to fall over if something hits it, so (aside from the additional lateral forces) I don't think there is all that much difference, assuming the columns are correctly specified for their intended use.

There's definitely one location I know of (outside London and outside the UK) where the street lighting columns were designed with passive provision for trolley wires to be installed at a later date (which is planned within the next 5 years). Again, the lack of a single modern functioning trolleybus network in the UK makes it difficult to tell what rules would apply in that respect.
The rules that would apply would be the same as apply to tram overhead. The problem is the same (high voltage electricity) it's just the collector may put different pressures on the rail (as it moves) so the wire may actually need to be more secure than for a tram.
 

transmanche

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London would benefit massively were they to be reintroduced on the most frequently served corridors - the photo above shows the new routemasters could be converted into trolleybuses fairly easily by fitting poles and replacing the diesel motor with a battery.
I concur. And as they have an all-electric drivetrain, it would be relatively trivial to convert the New Routemasters - simply replace the diesel engine with a transformer/inverter/whatever electrical gubbins is needed to change 750v DC to what the bus requires.
 

carlberry

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I concur. And as they have an all-electric drivetrain, it would be relatively trivial to convert the New Routemasters - simply replace the diesel engine with a transformer/inverter/whatever electrical gubbins is needed to change 750v DC to what the bus requires.
I suspect the changes to the roof to support the weight of the overhead equipment and the changes to the body to accommodate the high voltage cables wouldn't be trivial.
 

175mph

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Here is a photo of SYPTE 2450 at Sandtoft, it is currently undergoing repairs to bring back to running & passenger service at the Museum.
69561191_10219981796365435_1421089147921104896_o.jpg

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Excellent picture, it looks, from the outside of course, still in a fit condition to put into service. :)
 
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