I presume you mean most reliable service the North Manchester lines have seen in months 'on a Sunday'. For an overall figure one in 22 trains cancelled isn't a particularly good record, and, according to Northern's own figures, only in the period October/November has that figure been exceeded, and even then only very slightly. For all previous periods this year, the published figures are well below that.
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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages
- Thread starter Starmill
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I presume you mean most reliable service the North Manchester lines have seen in months 'on a Sunday'. For an overall figure one in 22 trains cancelled isn't a particularly good record, and, according to Northern's own figures, only in the period October/November has that figure been exceeded, and even then only very slightly. For all previous periods this year, the published figures are well below that.
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RailUK Forums
Other pre-planned cancellations on Sunday, through driver shortage, were:
Morecambe - Lancaster
50% of the Southport - Todmorden service
Cancellations as a consequence of pre-planned engineering work were:
Hebden Bridge - Blackpool North
Todmorden - Blackburn via Copy Pit
Colne - Preston
Blackburn - Clitheroe
Should have saved a few drivers there.
Indeed, but the fact that, even after the pre-planned cancellations, there are sure-fire unplanned cancellations in addition, suggests to me that an insufficient number are being cancelled in advance.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Could not the next published timetables reflect the actual reality that Northern face on Sunday by recasting certain routes or would this be seen as a contravention of the terms of the franchise?
agbrs_Jack
Member
They’ve already broken the terms of their franchise 5 times for hourly Sunday services on the Stoke line!
Dec 17
May 18
Dec 18
May 19
Dec 19
Is there any timescale to when these driver contract issues will be sorted??
Killingworth
Established Member
The infection has been confirmed for this Sunday, including pre-advised scheduled cuts on the Hope Valley line for the first time. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/travel-alerts/2386-timetables-change-sunday-nov17
Although tickets can still be booked on all hourly trains they will only be running 2 hourly. Look for specific details on Saturday, by which time most will already have made plans to be at the station/s for their booked trains. Or will just turn up to go if not booked.
It's amazing that so many still try to use these services.
Although tickets can still be booked on all hourly trains they will only be running 2 hourly. Look for specific details on Saturday, by which time most will already have made plans to be at the station/s for their booked trains. Or will just turn up to go if not booked.
It's amazing that so many still try to use these services.
Llandudno
Established Member
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Perhaps hit them in the pocket, buy a ticket for a train that is planned to be cancelled and claim delay repay.
The ‘service’ is a shambles!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Northern should just cancel all Sunday services regardless of franchise commitments and let the DfT see how they fare in discussions with ASLEF and the RMT about Sunday service provision.
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Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
During the long DOO dispute at Southern the minister was adamant that he would not get involved in any discussions with the union. I wouldn't expect things to be any different with this problem.
Killingworth
Established Member
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Ministers come and go but surely the time has come when it should be made clear to the general public of the situation that a TOC such as Northern is in with regards the rail union's position on Sunday working affecting the ability to run a Sunday service.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
As in neither the DfT nor the TOC wants to compensate traincrew for the necessary changes to their contracts of employment but also don't think it worth getting into an industrial relations fight over it either. Ultimately everyone has their price but those who hold the purse strings are unwilling to pay seemingly anything at all. And the suggestion, which crops up on here occasionally, that new starters should be put on different contracts is utterly impractical as it can't be rostered without creating real inefficiency. Rock, meet hard place.
Clicking on the above link brings up the casualty list for Sunday as follows.
Wigan North Western - Stalybridge (bus substitution Wigan NW - Bolton and Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge)
Lancaster - Morecambe (bus substitution)
Manchester Victoria to Todmorden section of the Southport to Blackburn (via Copy Pit) service (bus substitution) *
Half of Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield service (hourly instead of half-hourly)
Half of Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield service (two-hourly instead of hourly)
* The Southport to Parbold and Todmorden to Blackburn sections are cancelled through engineering works - only the Parbold to Manchester Victoria section is going to be running!
In addition, the following services will be replaced by buses due to engineering works.
Hebden Bridge to Blackpool North section of service from Yorkshire (bus substitution Hebden Bridge - Preston only) *
Colne - Preston section of Colne - Blackpool South service *
Southport to Parbold and Todmorden to Blackburn sections of Southport - Blackburn service *
Bolton to Clitheroe section of Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe service *
Sellafield to Millom section of Carlisle to Barrow service
Blackpool North to Hellifield (bus substitution Preston - Hellifield only)
* Also affected Saturday; Southport to Parbold also affected Mon/Tues/Wed. Yorkshire trains run to Accrington Saturday.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The losers therefore are the travelling public who wish to travel by rail on Sundays. The raison d'etre of this thread discusses how rail travel on certain routes on Sundays in the Northern rail franchise area is so affected.
Know it's been said before but Alsef actively want Sundays in the working week at Northern. They fairly recently agreed a deal with Northern for it (& way too many other things so it was rejected in a vote).
Drivers will accept Sundays in the week, they just don't want to give up other terms & conditions at the same time.
If the company & Aslef would work on a new deal for Sundays only and stop attaching changes to various other working conditions alongside it it'd have a real chance of a successful vote. If they try again for an overarching 'productivty deal' that happens to include Sunday working I think it'd fail again. Just do a Sunday deal on its own.
Out of interest, how would you put together a deal so as to make it palatable to drivers for Sundays inside?
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Which is all very sad. Of course members of the public have no real influence on trade union policies but they do, nominally at least, have influence over politicians. But experience suggests that transport is not much of a factor in most people's voting decisions. In other words I don't expect any meaningful change any time soon.
Eccles1983
On Moderation
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It's not actually that difficult.
An increase in wages to reflect the loss of a day.
An increase in annual leave entitlement.
A guarantee to remain on a 4 day working week with long weekends and the fixed rest day pattern protected.
That's basically why it fell down last time. Northern got too greedy and it was shown that the fixed rest day pattern was unachievable with the constraints given.
Killingworth
Established Member
Well, the details for the Hope Valley line are out. It said a 2 hourly service last night, and still does; https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/travel-alerts/2386-timetables-change-sunday-nov17
However, a check on Realtime Trains indicates a 3 hourly service at best, see Manchester - Sheffield; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT and return Sheffield-Manchester; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT
As the full hourly service was still being sold at 23.00 last night there are going to be a lot of unhappy travellers tomorrow. Hopefully this one shuttle service actually runs!
However, a check on Realtime Trains indicates a 3 hourly service at best, see Manchester - Sheffield; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT and return Sheffield-Manchester; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT
As the full hourly service was still being sold at 23.00 last night there are going to be a lot of unhappy travellers tomorrow. Hopefully this one shuttle service actually runs!
agbrs_Jack
Member
Which I guess makes the answer ‘until further notice’?
or is ‘not during this franchise’ more realistic?
I don't know, from an economic point of view, if train crew are going to want all that in return, that sounds like a huge increase in staff costs to me. It would be worth trying to quantify what this would mean, given prevailing railway labour market conditions.
Just how much of the cost of two members of staff on all trains, especially short 2 car trains, is it worthwhile for taxpayers to subsidise?
In other words, might it be more economical to run some routes with dedicated rail replacement buses on Sundays? I'm in favour of large subsidises for railways overall, but maybe only 100% or a bit more in the case of 'special' routes. But just how many train crew going to have to be hired and paid for to come to work on Sundays?
Only four services running out of an hourly service all day is appallingly bad. Four.
The Manchester Victoria to Bolton section, which I'm sure was showing on 'Realtime Trains' as being train-operated today, is now showing as being cancelled. Actually, it was already shown on Northern's 'Travel Alerts' page as cancelled, but I misread it. It is, however, still shown on the 'Improvement Works' page as operating.
Replacement buses are shown as operating Clitheroe - Bolton only, indeed passengers are urged to use the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport/Manchester Victoria services for travel between Bolton and Manchester. I'm a bit dubious about this, since when the Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria service was recently cancelled through driver shortage I'm pretty sure that replacement buses ran over the whole route.
There are now five trains each way showing on RTT, but Northern's 'Travel Alerts' page is still assuring us that a two-hourly service will operate.
Killingworth
Established Member
5 eastbound services stopping all stations but final 21.32 westbound runs non-stop from Sheffield to Piccadilly. Effectively ECS for Hope Valley users making it only 4 for most of us. However that return working was cancelled last Sunday so I wouldn't be too confident about it today. At least the first eastbound train is running.
And it’s Northern being too greedy?!
In a normal industry the new hires would come in with Sunday’s inside and current staff would individually be offered lump sums to change (or leave if old contracts are that onerous to the company), even if they didn’t necessarily work that way until enough of the staff were on that plan.
But that’s in a normal industry which closes down if the staff won’t modernise....
Glenn1969
Established Member
I work in retail. When I started we had this type of contract with Sunday outside the working week and generous overtime payments to encourage people to work. Now after 3 changes of terms we have Sunday inside the working week and no extra premiums. The vast majority of staff accepted these new terms
If USDAW were willing to do this why do the RMT and ASLEF insist on living in the 1980s when the rest of industry has clearly moved on? Sunday should be part of the working week in modern society
If USDAW were willing to do this why do the RMT and ASLEF insist on living in the 1980s when the rest of industry has clearly moved on? Sunday should be part of the working week in modern society
Retail is a totally different industry. It's generally low skilled and has a much higher turn over of staff many of whom are part time. Many staff do not see their jobs as careers in the same way those on the railway do as many retail jobs are close to minimum wahe. Many staff are not in unions so USDAW has little power.
As has been said many times RMT and ASLEF want a 7 day week. Train operators don't want to pay for extra staff and the training required. When you move to a 7 day week not requiring overtime you need about 15% extra staff and for Northern this would mean employing around 300 extra drivers.
An ASLEF rep did propose to Northern for drivers to work around 1 in 3 Sundays for minimal extra pay (to cover loss of Sunday premium). They would then have a week of rest days every 13 weeks. (Effectively having a day back for each Sunday you'd worked as they'd no longer be paid as overtime). This was rejected and not even discussed further by the company due to the number of extra drivers required.
The retail industry may have enough staff to cover Sundays in the working week. Northern don't on the Western side. They have enough staff to cover a 6 day week (and even that's debatable but not for this thread) and rely on overtime to cover the 7th. If they want a 7 day railway somebody will have to pay for enough staff to run it. The unions would happily accept this. The Sunday shortages have nothing to do with the Unions and are based on whether individuals want to do overtime. There is no pressure on them either way.
As has been said many times RMT and ASLEF want a 7 day week. Train operators don't want to pay for extra staff and the training required. When you move to a 7 day week not requiring overtime you need about 15% extra staff and for Northern this would mean employing around 300 extra drivers.
An ASLEF rep did propose to Northern for drivers to work around 1 in 3 Sundays for minimal extra pay (to cover loss of Sunday premium). They would then have a week of rest days every 13 weeks. (Effectively having a day back for each Sunday you'd worked as they'd no longer be paid as overtime). This was rejected and not even discussed further by the company due to the number of extra drivers required.
The retail industry may have enough staff to cover Sundays in the working week. Northern don't on the Western side. They have enough staff to cover a 6 day week (and even that's debatable but not for this thread) and rely on overtime to cover the 7th. If they want a 7 day railway somebody will have to pay for enough staff to run it. The unions would happily accept this. The Sunday shortages have nothing to do with the Unions and are based on whether individuals want to do overtime. There is no pressure on them either way.
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Eccles1983
On Moderation
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Yes.
Northern couldn't just get Sundays in. They tried to tinker around and grab as much as possible and it backfired. It was greed that made the deal fall - the issue is Sundays. But trying to grab longer driving hours, more scope to mess staff about and a staggered deal was the killer.
And comparing to other industries is irrelevant. The industry compares to itself. And would any other TOC attempt what you are saying? Absolutely not.
I've worked in other industries. Every single time the terms and conditions have been the same regardless of length of service. I've never known or experiences separate terms for people doing the same job.
Try to compare eggs with eggs.
can you clarify please? Would that be work a 1 in 3 Sundays as an extra day, then get that day back?
Or work Sunday as one day of a standard week, get paid more, and get extra holiday?
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