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Stopping Point Accuracy.

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whoosh

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Stevenage platforms are all 12 car capable and have been for years.

Point is if you’re fully in platform does it matter where you stop?

Eg 12 car platform and all services stop at a specific marker even 4 cars.

As long as all the doors are on the platform I don't think it's an issue on the odd occasion. The different stopping points are to position the train relative to the entrance/exit to the platform (which sometimes creates conflict between minimising slips trips and falls of passengers hurrying for trains, and drivers stopping short - a separate issue really).

The only thing at Stevenage is that the CD/RA equipment is positioned before the the 12 car marker, so 12 car 365s need manually dispatching with bat and flag - 387s and 700s have in cab monitors so are driver despatched using these.

Going a bit past the stop car marker with all the doors on the platform is much MUCH more preferable than stopping short!
 
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tpjm

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As a regular rail passenger, it is always appreciated when the driver stops in the platform, that's quite accurate enough for me.
However a 2 coach DMU stopping at an 10 coach platform for example doesn't need to be bang on

As somebody who is involved in setting these positions, I can confirm that there is more to it than you might think.

When we determine a stop board position, we're looking to meet the following criteria:
  • Critical: The driver can see the signal (i.e. far enough back);
  • Critical: A ramp can be deployed at the door where the accessible area is located, taking into account any potential, however unlikely, reverse formation working. This is to avoid the ramp being deployed and there not being enough clearance to turn a wheelchair, i.e. in line with a lamp post or staircase at one of our vintage stations;
  • Critical: The best dispatch procedure possible. (arguably, this could be a nice to have, but it's better if you can stop the train in a different position to minimise the risk of a dispatch irregularity through a complex, less-than-ideal procedure.);
  • Nice to have: Good clearance around any cycle storage areas;
  • Nice to have: Good customer flow on the station to minimise bottlenecks and the risk of a PTI incident.
Our standard is for drivers to line up their side window of the cab with the stop board, but when we set them, we tend to allow up to +/- 3m as contingency.
 

Lewlew

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that would be to line up with a CSDO beacon I think. (Correct Side Door Opening).
CSDE (enable not opening).

If it was only a foot then it would be to line up with the monitors as the csde zone is quite big which enables some drivers to open the doors before coming to a complete stop.

Or the TBC could have popped up causing the deadman to blow, applying the emergency brake.

There's loadssss of reasons for stopping short and drawing up and it happens every day.
 

Hadders

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Noticed a few new "precision" marker boards for 390s at some of the WCML stations recently.

I noticed one of these on one of the platforms at Warrington Bank Quay a couple of months ago. I assume the platform must be bit of a tight fit necessitating a more exact positioning?

Many years ago (WAGN or early FCC days) I was on an evening train from Kings Cross to Stevenage, class 365 operated. It was leaf fall season and as we approached platform 4 the driver came on the PA sounding rather stressed saying 'I'm sorry I don't think we're going to stop here'. As it happens we did stop, just on the platform but right at the end.
 

bramling

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I noticed one of these on one of the platforms at Warrington Bank Quay a couple of months ago. I assume the platform must be bit of a tight fit necessitating a more exact positioning?

Many years ago (WAGN or early FCC days) I was on an evening train from Kings Cross to Stevenage, class 365 operated. It was leaf fall season and as we approached platform 4 the driver came on the PA sounding rather stressed saying 'I'm sorry I don't think we're going to stop here'. As it happens we did stop, just on the platform but right at the end.

I remember something similar at Hildenborough (down) on a damp and snowy day a few years ago. My train stopped with the cab level with the platform ramp, however (unluckily for me!) upon returning from my business and wishing to continue in the down direction the next three or four trains all overshot and didn’t set back. On the plus side at least there was some warmth in the air from the brakes!
 

CarltonA

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that would be to line up with a CSDO beacon I think. (Correct Side Door Opening).

I'm not sure the 1972 Bakerloo stock has modern systems like that but each train has seven cars and needs to stop accurately so as to fit the platform correctly. They don't have SDO, so doors can't be cut out. The brakes are a bit old hat as well (frankly the whole line is somewhat Edwardian in nature).
 

Lewlew

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I'm not sure the 1972 Bakerloo stock has modern systems like that but each train has seven cars and needs to stop accurately so as to fit the platform correctly. They don't have SDO, so doors can't be cut out. The brakes are a bit old hat as well (frankly the whole line is somewhat Edwardian in nature).
They do have CSDE, all passenger trains on LUL do. Correct that there is no SDO or end door cut out as found on other stock though
 

43055

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As somebody who is involved in setting these positions, I can confirm that there is more to it than you might think.

When we determine a stop board position, we're looking to meet the following criteria:
  • Critical: The driver can see the signal (i.e. far enough back);
  • Critical: A ramp can be deployed at the door where the accessible area is located, taking into account any potential, however unlikely, reverse formation working. This is to avoid the ramp being deployed and there not being enough clearance to turn a wheelchair, i.e. in line with a lamp post or staircase at one of our vintage stations;
  • Critical: The best dispatch procedure possible. (arguably, this could be a nice to have, but it's better if you can stop the train in a different position to minimise the risk of a dispatch irregularity through a complex, less-than-ideal procedure.);
  • Nice to have: Good clearance around any cycle storage areas;
  • Nice to have: Good customer flow on the station to minimise bottlenecks and the risk of a PTI incident.
Our standard is for drivers to line up their side window of the cab with the stop board, but when we set them, we tend to allow up to +/- 3m as contingency.
Does the signalling system have a play in this as well? As since Derby remodelling 153s and 170 stop boards have appeared for stopping half way along the platforms. Presumably so the axle counters don't get disturbed if the train stops on the axle counter head.
 

bramling

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I'm not sure the 1972 Bakerloo stock has modern systems like that but each train has seven cars and needs to stop accurately so as to fit the platform correctly. They don't have SDO, so doors can't be cut out. The brakes are a bit old hat as well (frankly the whole line is somewhat Edwardian in nature).

72 stock does have CSDE, and has had it since the 1990s. All LU stocks now have it, the last without was the Victoria Line 67 stock which never had it (the Victoria Line was considered a special case as the driver could move around in the cab).

However, the CSDE on the older stocks tends/tended to have a quite generous zone. Unlike something like the old Northern Line (pre-resignalling) setup which was rather temperamental and often required the driver to nudge up even if stopped correctly. I’d suggest it’s possible the nudge up referred to on the Bakerloo may have been more a case of nudging up in order to fully align with the platform monitors / mirrors - many of which require a quite precise stop in order to be properly viewed.
 

philthetube

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If you heard the Bakerloo driver curse because of stopping short, I dread to think what you may have heard had he gone past the mark.
 

Journeyman

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Was sat right behind the cab on a Bakerloo Line train a few months ago. Stopped at a station, heard cursing from within the cab and we drew forward about a foot before stopping again and the doors opening. Presume some of those stops have to be pretty accurate!
that would be to line up with a CSDO beacon I think. (Correct Side Door Opening).

It's actually CSDE - Correct Side Door Enable.

Yeah - in a lot of cases, tube stock is slightly longer than the platforms, and it has to be lined up very accurately - if it doesn't align with CSDE beacons, an override has to be operated, which causes questions to be asked by managers.

In the days when Jubilee line trains were manually driven, the margin of error to ensure alignment with platform edge doors was only +/- 30cm.

ATO on the Victoria line with 67 Stock was somewhat inaccurate when trains drew into stations, and would sometimes need manual intervention. It was even worse when the Central line first automated - half the train in the tunnel wasn't unusual.
 

tpjm

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Does the signalling system have a play in this as well? As since Derby remodelling 153s and 170 stop boards have appeared for stopping half way along the platforms. Presumably so the axle counters don't get disturbed if the train stops on the axle counter head.
For some platforms where you might have an A and B end, this is an important factor, i.e. get the train on and make sure you leave enough room for another train to drop on top without sitting on the mid-platform magnet.
 

HantsExile

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Stopping point information can also be useful for customers. I travel to several stations where it is convenient to get off from the front carriage of the train. So provided the PIS shows the length of the train - and the driver stops in the right place (which in my experience they usually do) - the customer can position themselves ready to enter at the front. Simples!
 

Taunton

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In the days when Jubilee line trains were manually driven, the margin of error to ensure alignment with platform edge doors was only +/- 30cm.
I was always impressed, it was my regular line, when they were manually driven with how the trains would invariably come to a rapid stop at each PED platform absolutely spot on - in the several years they ran like this I had just two or three times where they had to creep it forward a bit, and never beyond the point, when apparently they would have had to continue to the next station.
 

Journeyman

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I was always impressed, it was my regular line, when they were manually driven with how the trains would invariably come to a rapid stop at each PED platform absolutely spot on - in the several years they ran like this I had just two or three times where they had to creep it forward a bit, and never beyond the point, when apparently they would have had to continue to the next station.

I saw it screwed up once or twice very early on, but it certainly didn't happen often, and there were initially some bugs in the system that saw train doors open and PEDs remain closed. It bedded down very quickly.

Especially impressive when you consider it wasn't meant to be manually driven in the first place!
 

Mintona

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There are a few stations we have to stop perfectly where the train is longer than the platform to ensure only the correct doors are released. Bath Spa platform 1 being the tightest and busiest station.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Before the Great Northern got the 700’s, the stop boards on the down platform island at Hatfield were at the furthest point imaginable from the footbridge at the southern end. (ISTR they were relocated there after a number of stopping-short incidents).
When a 3-car Class 313 called there, that positioning made for a long walk back, even from the rearmost carriage. Not nice in pouring rain, and made for regular anguished sprints from irregular travellers who, not unreasonably, expected a short train to stop a lot nearer to the footbridge...
 

voyagerdude220

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There are a few stations we have to stop perfectly where the train is longer than the platform to ensure only the correct doors are released. Bath Spa platform 1 being the tightest and busiest station.

I got on a 9-car IET service at Bath Spa towards Bristol recently and noticed that the very rear of the rear most carriage appeared to be off the platform. I'm guessing 2x 5-cars coupled together wouldn't fit.
 

Mintona

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I got on a 9-car IET service at Bath Spa towards Bristol recently and noticed that the very rear of the rear most carriage appeared to be off the platform. I'm guessing 2x 5-cars coupled together wouldn't fit.

With a nine coach IET the front and rear doors are off the platform.

with a ten coach IET the front three doors and rear door are off the platform.

Even so, it’s still very tight with the second/fourth and second last doors to be on. A tolerance of around two metres
 

Steddenm

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Noticed at Preston the other day they have numerous stop boards on some of the platforms...

Class 14x, 15x, 195 2/3
VT 5
VT 9/10/11
TPE 3
TPE 5/10/Loco+6
Sleeper ZZ
Loco 1+4+1
 

philthetube

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With a nine coach IET the front and rear doors are off the platform.

with a ten coach IET the front three doors and rear door are off the platform.

Even so, it’s still very tight with the second/fourth and second last doors to be on. A tolerance of around two metres
Speaking as a met line driver, 2 metres sounds very generous, a Metre past the stopping mark at Wembley park northbound would be a spad
 

voyagerdude220

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With a nine coach IET the front and rear doors are off the platform.

with a ten coach IET the front three doors and rear door are off the platform.

Even so, it’s still very tight with the second/fourth and second last doors to be on. A tolerance of around two metres

Thank you, greatly appreciated.
 

43066

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It varies by location.

At Leicester P2, for example, stop the leading cab of an HST next to the mop and bucket and you’ll be aight. ;)

On the other hand external DOO monitors on the ex southern region (especially present day southeastern) are sighted to require 1m either side accuracy.
 
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