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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages

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mandub

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can you clarify please? Would that be work a 1 in 3 Sundays as an extra day, then get that day back?
Or work Sunday as one day of a standard week, get paid more, and get extra holiday?

The first one - work a 1 in 3 Sundays as an extra day that week (no pay for it), then get that day back as a day off at a later point in the year.
 
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Meerkat

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The first one - work a 1 in 3 Sundays as an extra day that week (no pay for it), then get that day back as a day off at a later point in the year.
Thanks. Seems reasonable depending on how minimal the pay rise was.
Seems a missed opportunity by the unions to gain in the PR battle they are losing...
“We are happy to man a decent Sunday service (and get more members) but the DfT won’t pay for it”
The DfT should be forced to be honest - either specify that kind of deal, or cut back the Sunday service to one that can be reliably manned.
 

Greybeard33

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Four Mid Cheshire line services (two round trips) cancelled at short notice today, leaving 4 hour gaps between the remaining services this afternoon/evening.

This line has also suffered cancellations due to crew shortages on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday this week. On Monday two successive diagrams were cancelled, leaving 3 hour gaps in the hourly service, while on Wednesday two Manchester bound services were cancelled in the morning peak.

It is not just a Sunday issue any more.
 

scrapy

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Seems a missed opportunity by the unions to gain in the PR battle they are losing....
What PR battle are they losing? Whether the driver (or guard) chooses to work optional overtime on a Sunday is their personal choice. It has nothing to do with the unions. The unions have not told them whether to work or not and no industrial action is taking place. What has Northern not having enough staff to cover Sundays got to do with the unions? The unions are calling for more staff.

The travelling public don't blame the unions they blame the train company. It only seems to be some people on this forum who are mis-informed jumping on the anti union band wagon.
 

Moonshot

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It's not actually that difficult.

An increase in wages to reflect the loss of a day.

An increase in annual leave entitlement.

A guarantee to remain on a 4 day working week with long weekends and the fixed rest day pattern protected.

That's basically why it fell down last time. Northern got too greedy and it was shown that the fixed rest day pattern was unachievable with the constraints given.

All that was being offered anyway, but it got rejected by drivers.
 

Llama

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Such as everything in the booklet that Northern kindly sent us, and everything in the 'roadshows' by the driver's council reps.
 

Killingworth

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The 5 return trips on the Hope Valley line did run, the last eastbound being almost 20 minutes late after a build up of delays. That unit had enough layover to start on its non-stop run back to Piccadilly on time at 21.33, last service to the Hope Valley having been at 18.20 from Sheffield.

It was a miserable day with constant light rain in the Peak District and walkers were well down on what might normally be expected. The trains that ran were reportedly lightly loaded - although a double 150 was provided for at least some of the services. Carriage 57127 seemed to have been the place for a party, but on Sunday morning?

IMG_20191117_150704.jpg IMG_20191117_150637.jpg IMG_20191117_151640.jpg
 

Bevan Price

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What PR battle are they losing? Whether the driver (or guard) chooses to work optional overtime on a Sunday is their personal choice. It has nothing to do with the unions. The unions have not told them whether to work or not and no industrial action is taking place. What has Northern not having enough staff to cover Sundays got to do with the unions? The unions are calling for more staff.

The travelling public don't blame the unions they blame the train company. It only seems to be some people on this forum who are mis-informed jumping on the anti union band wagon.

I don't blame unions for all the problems, and I realise that he is trying to protect his members - but - like it or not - Mr Cash has acquired a public reputation as something of a sh*t stirrer, and it is almost inevitable that much of the press - and quite a few passengers will assign him and his union as the cause of many problems - even when the TOC or DfT are the real cause.
 

156420

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I don't blame unions for all the problems, and I realise that he is trying to protect his members - but - like it or not - Mr Cash has acquired a public reputation as something of a sh*t stirrer, and it is almost inevitable that much of the press - and quite a few passengers will assign him and his union as the cause of many problems - even when the TOC or DfT are the real cause.

Wrong Union. The shortages are mainly driver related. Not that I’m blaming them of course.
 

scrapy

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Given that you have claimed to be a guard, and you're brother in law a DTM I'm sure you are fully aware of the details and will have heard messroom views about the details of the recently proposed deal.
 

Greybeard33

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At 9am this Monday morning, Northern JourneyCheck was already showing cancellations of Leeds - Chester, Stoke - Piccadilly, Marsden - Piccadilly, Piccadilly - Buxton and Piccadilly - Hadfield services "due to a shortage of train drivers".

What is likely to happen when drivers start taking winter holidays and/or there is a flu epidemic?

Update: subsequent driver shortage cancellations afflicting Preston - Ormskirk, Victoria - Leeds and Hope Valley services too.
 
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Camden

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There used to be on London Midland, when the staff were in dispute.

This is the reality of Sunday working. There is not a cat in hell's chance of unions voluntarily allowing it to happen, as declining to work ''overtime" is an easy way of causing costly chaos without having to strike.

As a collective, the railway industry set up is rotten and needs top to bottom reform. The current situation is having real world effects, both personal and productivity, far beyond the importance of staffs roles in society. I can only hope the little to nothing gained so far has been worth it for employees, as a Tory win in the election and subsequent tonne of bricks coming down on the ability to strike will truly herald a change in how things proceed in future.
 

js1000

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Is part of this to do with drivers taking unused holidays at the end of the year aa well?
 

Llama

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Nobody is declining to work Sundays to cause any chaos. They are declining to work them because they want a day off, it's that simple. If an organised effort or instruction was made to collectively refuse to work Sundays that would have to have gone through the required processes at the relevant union or otherwise that union would be taken to the cleaners.

A lot of drivers want Sundays off because they are working extra days during the week - and working an extra day during the week pays 50% more than working an extra day on a Sunday. It doesn't take a genius to work out why they are then short on Sundays.

Why are drivers working so many extra days during the week? To cover training. Even with dozens of extra drivers working hundreds of extra days during the week there are still cancellations all through the week.

The situation was attempted to be addressed earlier this year, however the management saw it as a golden opportunity to rip up all working agreements wholesale rather than address the minimum number of agreements necessary to bring Sundays inside the week on the west side of the business. This was quite rightly declined by the drivers. Even if it had been accepted it would've meant continued disruption for years - bringing Sundays inside the working week for 650+ drivers who would normally work Sundays as overtime would mean recruitment of about 15% more drivers - call that 100 extra drivers. It would take a minimum of three months (more likely six months) to recruit those drivers. Another twelve months or more to train them and get them passed out as competent drivers with basic routes and traction, then another one to four years before they are fully competent in all routes and traction. You would need to recruit extra driver instructors, driver trainers and driver managers.
At say Buxton who have only about 30 drivers and sign very few routes and traction that might be possible in six months, but of the 100 total drivers required to be recruited you'd only need one or two for Buxton if any - there is a waiting list of drivers wanting internal transfers, which means there will be replacements needed at Piccadilly or whatever depot those drivers transfer from to go to Buxton. The same applies at Workington which is another tiny depot. At each of Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly there are 200 drivers and already thousands of days training outstanding. Wigan, Liverpool and Blackpool have just under 100 each. Blackburn has 55, I'm not sure how many Barrow have.

The easy way to get Sundays covered at no extra cost to the company would be to ban rest-day work during the week. However that really wouldn't bode well for the other six days in the week.

What about the fact that working a rest day from Monday to Saturday pays so much more than working a Sunday? Drivers rightly want a decent rate of pay to give up their own time off, especially as working a shift as a driver often impacts on either the day before (making sure you're well prepared for that 2am alarm clock) or the day after (getting home at say 3am) too. Northern are not in a position to be able to play hardball with the rate of pay for working a rest day during the week - there is so much rest day working required, and drivers obviously have the right to decide whether they want to work extra days of not. Bringing the rate of pay for Sundays up to make it more attractive to work Sundays is one option, but that costs money - if rest day work somehow no longer became required, the Sunday rate of pay would remain. This could end up costing the company more eventually if it was to bring Sundays inside the working week as drivers would then want the correct recompense for the pay they would lose by not having Sunday pay as extra. Even if the pay was made the same for Sundays as for working extra days during the week some drivers would decline as they want the time off with their family when their family is actually around.

TL;DR - drivers would rather work extra during the week than Sundays.
 

Llama

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Is part of this to do with drivers taking unused holidays at the end of the year aa well?
No, any holiday that is applied for and gets declined is carried forward to the next year.

It is worth noting that there are a lot of drivers who have worked extra days during training for 195s/331s who made use of an agreement whereby instead of taking payment they can take the day as a 'banked day' which can be taken at any time. You will hear a lot more about this in the run up to Christmas, things will get significantly worse in the next six weeks - not only will annual leave be maxed out and these 'banked days' be spent, but also drivers won't want to work as many rest days in the run up to Christmas because weekends are a nightmare for trouble and also the simple fact that they've got other things to do besides work.
 

dk1

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Is part of this to do with drivers taking unused holidays at the end of the year aa well?
Holiday rosters for drivers are normally very strict. Even if say you where say sick & have weeks in lieu they can only be taken if there is a vacancy in that week.
 

Llama

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Yes this is correct. Block leave is always pre-rostered and tightly controlled. Ad-hoc daily leave is also subject to strict minimum guaranteed levels, anyone over and above that guaranteed minimum won't know whether their leave can be granted until the roster for the day in question is actually compiled, usually 72 hours in advance. I would say that given the current demand, very few above the minimum will get leave granted.
 

scrapy

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No, any holiday that is applied for and gets declined is carried forward to the next year.

It is worth noting that there are a lot of drivers who have worked extra days during training for 195s/331s who made use of an agreement whereby instead of taking payment they can take the day as a 'banked day' which can be taken at any time. You will hear a lot more about this in the run up to Christmas, things will get significantly worse in the next six weeks - not only will annual leave be maxed out and these 'banked days' be spent, but also drivers won't want to work as many rest days in the run up to Christmas because weekends are a nightmare for trouble and also the simple fact that they've got other things to do besides work.
Yes I believe 21st, 22nd, 24th, 27th, 31st December and 1st January are all going to be interesting regarding drivers taking their banked rest days from training. I certainly won't be making any plans that rely on using Northern on those days!
 

Camden

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Increasingly, people don't bank on using trains on many days. Might be the festive season for railway workers, but it's at the expense of making everyone else miserable if the above is true.

As and when the reset comes, there really must be some kind of personal commitment to public service involved. Either you want to keep a network going for everyone's benefit, or you just want to drive a train. If it's the latter, then you're entirely disposable because you just can't be depended on.
 

Llama

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Those two are not mutually exclusive, there are drivers who consider themselves professionals who have the nous to keep the job going and who want to drive trains.
 

Camden

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Those two are not mutually exclusive, there are drivers who consider themselves professionals who have the nous to keep the job going and who want to drive trains.
They shouldn't be mutually exclusive, no, but the parlous state of services would suggest that for some they are.
 

Eccles1983

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Personal commitment to public service or you're not dependable?

What is this nonsense? I have no commitment to public service - been there and done it for many years.

I have a professional outlook, that has nothing to do with public service. I am employed by a private company to deliver a function. That is driving trains safely in accordance with the rules as promptly as possible.

I'm not sure how that makes me undependable. I've read some strange stuff on here but that's up there.
 

Greybeard33

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It is worth noting that there are a lot of drivers who have worked extra days during training for 195s/331s who made use of an agreement whereby instead of taking payment they can take the day as a 'banked day' which can be taken at any time. You will hear a lot more about this in the run up to Christmas, things will get significantly worse in the next six weeks - not only will annual leave be maxed out and these 'banked days' be spent, but also drivers won't want to work as many rest days in the run up to Christmas because weekends are a nightmare for trouble and also the simple fact that they've got other things to do besides work.
From your excellent description of the issues, it seems clear that there are no easy/quick solutions. Whether or not Sundays are brought into the working week, Northern needs to recruit and train more drivers, which will take months at best.

If, as a temporary expedient, all NW Sunday services were bustituted (Sunday overtime no longer available), is it likely that enough drivers would then volunteer for rest day working to run a reliable service on weekdays?

Or would it be better to introduce an emergency timetable, as after May 2018, to thin out services all week to a level that can be reliably resourced without rest day working?

IMO planned cancellations are preferable to unplanned, both for passengers and for the company.
 

scrapy

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If, as a temporary expedient, all NW Sunday services were bustituted (Sunday overtime no longer available), is it likely that enough drivers would then volunteer for rest day working to run a reliable service on weekdays?
Probably won't make too much difference. Train crew generally fall into 3 categories.

1)Those who want all overtime going. They will already be working rest days anyway as well as Sundays.

2) Those who want a little overtime. They will do a few rest days in the week but avoid Sundays as they can spend time with family and get paid less for a Sunday.

3) Those who want no overtime at all.

By stopping trains on a Sunday all you do is penalise the first group but there is no incentive for groups 2 and 3 to do more rest days.

Also covering jobs on weekdays isn't to much of an issue (barring the odd Saturday late shifts). The big problem have is diagrams being too tight. Whilst there are often drivers available to work rest days in the week, Northern won't pay for spare/standby capacity at rest day rate. So when there's the slightest bit of disruption things balloon.

Looking at the financials as a result of this disruption Arriva often benefit financially in the short term as the initial cause is often another TOC or Network Rails fault. Meaning they can claim for resulting disruption and profit from their own trains being late as insufficient people claim for delays. So why shell out rest day rate to have contingency cover?
 

DC2001

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IMO planned cancellations are preferable to unplanned, both for passengers and for the company.
Personally, I prefer the unplanned cancellations as it generally means that at least some services will run as trains - for me it is usually quicker than the replacement bus alternative that may/may not turn up and connecting onto another service. I find the planned ones seem to often result in the stopping services being removed rather than the semi-fast ones which is always frustrating.
 

Tomnick

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They shouldn't be mutually exclusive, no, but the parlous state of services would suggest that for some they are.
Coming to work with the attitude that you want to keep the job moving, to get people to where they want to be, is one thing, and is to be applauded. To make the choice to come in and work endless rest days because there aren't enough staff is quite another.

I'd like to think that I fit firmly into the first sentence.

I do work a few rest days, and rosters know that I'll try my best to help them out if they're in a muddle, but it's my choice and I'll generally only do it if it suits me. Some work every rest day that they can. Others, many of whom will also go to great lengths to keep the job moving on the day, absolutely refuse to work any rest days. It doesn't make them any less professional or dedicated - they just don't want to spend all their time at work, nor should they have to.

You're trying to make this the drivers' problem, when it isn't - if there were enough staff, they wouldn't be relying on rest day work to this extent just to run a normal service.
 
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