ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Highland37 · 18 Nov 2019

These trains are pretty bad. Today my 10 year old got onto the 1208 from Glasgow to Inverness. It didn't even make it out of the station before it failed. Was it an HST.

Then she was told to go to the two coach train, a 158 I presume, which was the replacement and in the station. Another example of totally inadequate stock.

That train was terminated at Perth and it was replacement buses for all stations north. At Inverness Station there were no HSTs and no one had the faintest idea or seem interested in when the bus might arrive. One guy in a Scotrail vest was pissed off that I even bothered him whilst he was parking on the pavement, where no one should park but is common practice for railway staff in Inverness.

When the bus arrived it was a surprise to the Scotrail staff who were too busy chatting.

Overall, a very poor service with woeful management, ancient and unreliable stock and a bad attitude from many Scotrail staff.

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Northhighland · 18 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
These trains are pretty bad. Today my 10 year old got onto the 1208 from Glasgow to Inverness. It didn't even make it out of the station before it failed. Was it an HST.

Then she was told to go to the two coach train, a 158 I presume, which was the replacement and in the station. Another example of totally inadequate stock.

That train was terminated at Perth and it was replacement buses for all stations north. At Inverness Station there were no HSTs and no one had the faintest idea or seem interested in when the bus might arrive. One guy in a Scotrail vest was pissed off that I even bothered him whilst he was parking on the pavement, where no one should park but is common practice for railway staff in Inverness.

When the bus arrived it was a surprise to the Scotrail staff who were too busy chatting.

Overall, a very poor service with woeful management, ancient and unreliable stock and a bad attitude from many Scotrail staff.

To be fair have lived this experience but only usually when the cause is snow

staff must be weary of the mess now though. Must be tired off apologising and explaining what is going wrong.

Highland37 · 18 Nov 2019

The staff in Inverness knew less than I did and were not interested in the passengers.

What will tomorrow bring? A rush of HSTs?

Mag_seven · 18 Nov 2019

I had two trips today in both a refurbished and unrefurbished set - no issues on either and we kept to time throughout. What was noticeable was the large number of power cars and sets sitting doing nothing at Haymarket depot though.

SC318250 · 18 Nov 2019

Mag_seven said:
What was noticeable was the large number of power cars and sets sitting doing nothing at Haymarket depot though.

I cant remember where I read it, but was there not something posted about a reduction in HST Operated services as some mods were required

InvHst · 18 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
These trains are pretty bad. Today my 10 year old got onto the 1208 from Glasgow to Inverness. It didn't even make it out of the station before it failed. Was it an HST.

Then she was told to go to the two coach train, a 158 I presume, which was the replacement and in the station. Another example of totally inadequate stock.

That train was terminated at Perth and it was replacement buses for all stations north. At Inverness Station there were no HSTs and no one had the faintest idea or seem interested in when the bus might arrive. One guy in a Scotrail vest was pissed off that I even bothered him whilst he was parking on the pavement, where no one should park but is common practice for railway staff in Inverness.

When the bus arrived it was a surprise to the Scotrail staff who were too busy chatting.

Overall, a very poor service with woeful management, ancient and unreliable stock and a bad attitude from many Scotrail staff.

1208 ex Glasgow was a HST left 25 late and was caped at Perth where a replacement 158 operated up to Inverness and has completed the diagram for the day so 1554 ex Inverness and 1939 ex Edinburgh is a single 158. No idea what unit and problem it had

InvHst · 18 Nov 2019

SC318250 said:
I cant remember where I read it, but was there not something posted about a reduction in HST Operated services as some mods were required

Completely unfabricated story as certain HST operated trains that were apparently not ment to run have run. Lack of units is simply down to backlog of exams and issues with the trains

InvHst · 18 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
The staff in Inverness knew less than I did and were not interested in the passengers.

What will tomorrow bring? A rush of HSTs?

Nope more short formations as the units are out of place and broken

asm0909 · 19 Nov 2019

A question - has there been gross underinvestment by Scotrail in maintenance facilities/staff?

Given the ongoing problems on reliability, and the disparity between operating companies, I wonder to what extent the problems are caused by a lack of ability to maintain/repair HST's. What with the low availability, the number of broken-up sets in Haymarket, and so on, logically I question whether there is the capacity to repair the failures at the required rate. If Scotrail have under-invested in repair facilities compared to other franchisees, this could explain the comparatively poor availability. It would also explain why, as more units have been delivered, the situation has deteriorated. More units ==> more failures, but no more repairs ==> more units out of service awaiting repair! This in turn could conceivably explain why Scotrail might be happy to have reasons to delay acceptance on more refurbished units!!

This is pure conjecture, of course, merely trying to be logical.

The notion that having Wabtec as a scapegoat to distract from Scotrail problems might be convenient, is of course pure speculation. But they are both remarkably tight lipped about what's going on, without actually citing confidentiality agreements or anything of that ilk!

On a separate matter, a challenge: to tune of "there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza" complete: " There's a fault in my engine, dear Alex, dear Alex......."

CEN60 · 19 Nov 2019

asm0909 said:
A question - has there been gross underinvestment by Scotrail in maintenance facilities/staff?

Given the ongoing problems on reliability, and the disparity between operating companies, I wonder to what extent the problems are caused by a lack of ability to maintain/repair HST's. What with the low availability, the number of broken-up sets in Haymarket, and so on, logically I question whether there is the capacity to repair the failures at the required rate. If Scotrail have under-invested in repair facilities compared to other franchisees, this could explain the comparatively poor availability. It would also explain why, as more units have been delivered, the situation has deteriorated. More units ==> more failures, but no more repairs ==> more units out of service awaiting repair! This in turn could conceivably explain why Scotrail might be happy to have reasons to delay acceptance on more refurbished units!!

This is pure conjecture, of course, merely trying to be logical.

The notion that having Wabtec as a scapegoat to distract from Scotrail problems might be convenient, is of course pure speculation. But they are both remarkably tight lipped about what's going on, without actually citing confidentiality agreements or anything of that ilk!

On a separate matter, a challenge: to tune of "there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza" complete: " There's a fault in my engine, dear Alex, dear Alex......."

Rumours abound re the large maintenance yard planned at Muirton in Perth has been "canned" by TS presumably because it was too / more expensive than originally thought. I guess that is not going to help things in any way either.

Mingulay · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
These trains are pretty bad. Today my 10 year old got onto the 1208 from Glasgow to Inverness. It didn't even make it out of the station before it failed. Was it an HST.

Then she was told to go to the two coach train, a 158 I presume, which was the replacement and in the station. Another example of totally inadequate stock.

That train was terminated at Perth and it was replacement buses for all stations north. At Inverness Station there were no HSTs and no one had the faintest idea or seem interested in when the bus might arrive. One guy in a Scotrail vest was pissed off that I even bothered him whilst he was parking on the pavement, where no one should park but is common practice for railway staff in Inverness.

When the bus arrived it was a surprise to the Scotrail staff who were too busy chatting.

Overall, a very poor service with woeful management, ancient and unreliable stock and a bad attitude from many Scotrail staff.

I don’t use the routes north of Dunblane often and I do see a fair few HST but I wince when I see a 2 or 3 car rammed full as it’s a fair net they have been standing a good while. It’s surprising this dismal service receives nothing like the media or political spotlight that failures in the central belt get. Scotrail are getting away with it and not held to account. Local politicians in the north need to do what they are paid to do. Represent their constituents.

As for indifferent station staff. There is no excuse in being fed up. When things go wrong they need to raise their game. On board staff are good. Station staff seem far less customer focused in my experience with the exception of waverley . Serious failing of ScotRail the whole station experience in the majority of stations. If you see it complain. And complain again. Otherwise nothing changes. Always call out poor service and compliment good service. Apathy feeds inertia and perpetuating poor practice and attitude in any industry.

toot toot · 19 Nov 2019

CEN60 said:
Rumours abound re the large maintenance yard planned at Muirton in Perth has been "canned" by TS presumably because it was too / more expensive than originally thought. I guess that is not going to help things in any way either.

For a little while it seemed like Muirton Yard was going to be revived.Quite an amount of work was carried out to clear the vegetation that had grown during its inactive years.
An unnecessary expense it may seem at the moment and more money wasted on a shambolic poorly managed project.

Highland37 · 19 Nov 2019

asm0909 said:
A question - has there been gross underinvestment by Scotrail in maintenance facilities/staff?

Given the ongoing problems on reliability, and the disparity between operating companies, I wonder to what extent the problems are caused by a lack of ability to maintain/repair HST's. What with the low availability, the number of broken-up sets in Haymarket, and so on, logically I question whether there is the capacity to repair the failures at the required rate. If Scotrail have under-invested in repair facilities compared to other franchisees, this could explain the comparatively poor availability. It would also explain why, as more units have been delivered, the situation has deteriorated. More units ==> more failures, but no more repairs ==> more units out of service awaiting repair! This in turn could conceivably explain why Scotrail might be happy to have reasons to delay acceptance on more refurbished units!!

This is pure conjecture, of course, merely trying to be logical.

The notion that having Wabtec as a scapegoat to distract from Scotrail problems might be convenient, is of course pure speculation. But they are both remarkably tight lipped about what's going on, without actually citing confidentiality agreements or anything of that ilk!

On a separate matter, a challenge: to tune of "there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza" complete: " There's a fault in my engine, dear Alex, dear Alex......."

All of that makes sense and might be true. However painful it is for those to recognise the age and condition of the HSTs though, we can't ignore people who work on them saying they (inc refurbished sets) are clapped out and have many problems even after Wabtec's glacial work such as leaking water.

We deserve better than the junk we are being offered and even that has been delivered.

433N · 19 Nov 2019

asm0909 said:
A question - has there been gross underinvestment by Scotrail in maintenance facilities/staff?

Given the ongoing problems on reliability, and the disparity between operating companies, I wonder to what extent the problems are caused by a lack of ability to maintain/repair HST's. What with the low availability, the number of broken-up sets in Haymarket, and so on, logically I question whether there is the capacity to repair the failures at the required rate. If Scotrail have under-invested in repair facilities compared to other franchisees, this could explain the comparatively poor availability. It would also explain why, as more units have been delivered, the situation has deteriorated. More units ==> more failures, but no more repairs ==> more units out of service awaiting repair! This in turn could conceivably explain why Scotrail might be happy to have reasons to delay acceptance on more refurbished units!!

This is pure conjecture, of course, merely trying to be logical.

The notion that having Wabtec as a scapegoat to distract from Scotrail problems might be convenient, is of course pure speculation. But they are both remarkably tight lipped about what's going on, without actually citing confidentiality agreements or anything of that ilk!

On a separate matter, a challenge: to tune of "there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza" complete: " There's a fault in my engine, dear Alex, dear Alex......."

As you say, this is pure conjecture ... and it is pure conjecture because, despite receiving public subsidy, Scotrail do not appear to be bound to respond to Freedom of Information requests. I actually find this quite concerning since it does not allow the project management to be put under external scrutiny. In fact, IIRC even questions from ScotGov were batted away as if nothing were amiss.

CEN60 · 19 Nov 2019

toot toot said:
For a little while it seemed like Muirton Yard was going to be revived.Quite an amount of work was carried out to clear the vegetation that had grown during its inactive years.
An unnecessary expense it may seem at the moment and more money wasted on a shambolic poorly managed project.

Even more astonishingly - I believe the land the yard was on had been sold off & it had to be bought back!!!!!!

Tony2 · 19 Nov 2019

Had my first trips on unrefurbished and refurbished HST sets between Edinburgh and Inverness yesterday and today. Timings were maintained and acceleration is noticeably impressive. Surprisingly the refurbished set I am on now on 1248 Inverness to Edinburgh has only one working toilet, there was an announcement that someone had rammed too much toilet paper down the toilet and blocked it! Not sure how this affected the rest of the toilets though. The unrefurbished set was fine. What is noticeable on this refurbished set is how cold it is inside, possibly due to the cold snap from last night.

PG · 19 Nov 2019

Tony2 said:
Surprisingly the refurbished set I am on now on 1248 Inverness to Edinburgh has only one working toilet, there was an announcement that someone had rammed too much toilet paper down the toilet and blocked it! Not sure how this affected the rest of the toilets though.

Maybe half the toilets were already out of use before it left the depot so one blocked with excess paper then left a 4 coach set with only one working toilet!
Actually you mentioned the low temperature so in fairness that might explain why some were not working - water in tanks frozen?

JModulo · 19 Nov 2019

PG said:
Maybe half the toilets were already out of use before it left the depot so one blocked with excess paper then left a 4 coach set with only one working toilet!
Actually you mentioned the low temperature so in fairness that might explain why some were not working - water in tanks frozen?

Seems to be a common thing with the classics aswell with water pressure not being the best.

Highland37 · 19 Nov 2019

Is there any way of knowing if Scotrail have applied for or got dispensation to operate the unrefurbished HSTs into 2020?

Speed43125 · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
Is there any way of knowing if Scotrail have applied for or got dispensation to operate the unrefurbished HSTs into 2020?

Not sure exactly, but I doubt they will. They have DMUs and they have refurbs. I'd like to think they're sacrificing service now to make sure they have them in high enough numbers and with enough reliability come 2020.
Pretty sure it's mentioned up thread that the HSTs will not operate with slam doors in 2020.

Highland37 · 19 Nov 2019

I see your point but the evidence (that Scotrail cannot get their refurb HSTs to be reliable in service) doesn't fill me with hope. Given that 170s and 158s are doing most of the work for the unreliable HSTs, will it make much difference not being able to use the classic sets?

hexagon789 · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
Is there any way of knowing if Scotrail have applied for or got dispensation to operate the unrefurbished HSTs into 2020?

It was said up-thread that they wouldn't be, and only refurbs would be in service next year.

dmkc · 19 Nov 2019

Is there still training ongoing with the classics? Ask as a classic set appeared in the years at Dundee over the course of the morning.

Highland37 · 19 Nov 2019

Thanks for confirming that. More 170s and 158s then.

hexagon789 · 19 Nov 2019

dmkc said:
Is there still training ongoing with the classics? Ask as a classic set appeared in the years at Dundee over the course of the morning.

Think the training is all refurbs now, wouldn't be much point with classics anyway, as they won't be used next year unless something changes last minute

cf111 · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
These trains are pretty bad. Today my 10 year old got onto the 1208 from Glasgow to Inverness. It didn't even make it out of the station before it failed. Was it an HST.

Then she was told to go to the two coach train, a 158 I presume, which was the replacement and in the station. Another example of totally inadequate stock.

That train was terminated at Perth and it was replacement buses for all stations north. At Inverness Station there were no HSTs and no one had the faintest idea or seem interested in when the bus might arrive. One guy in a Scotrail vest was pissed off that I even bothered him whilst he was parking on the pavement, where no one should park but is common practice for railway staff in Inverness.

When the bus arrived it was a surprise to the Scotrail staff who were too busy chatting.

Overall, a very poor service with woeful management, ancient and unreliable stock and a bad attitude from many Scotrail staff.

I have had many positive experiences with the on-train staff based at Inverness, be they Scotrail, LNER or Caledonian Sleeper but outside of the ticket office staff I sadly have to agree with you re. the station staff. I can't say that this is a Scotrail problem as elsewhere I haven't experienced the same attitude. I was recently on a 170 to Edinburgh which terminated at Perth and the lady in charge of helping out the mass of passengers couldn't have been more cheerful, apologetic or helpful. Similar issues at Inverness have not been dealt with as well.

I realise things are at breaking point with the HST farce, but even if the staff have no information to give, which I can see being true, a smile and an apology goes a long was as long as the passenger is being polite.

43096 · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
I see your point but the evidence (that Scotrail cannot get their refurb HSTs to be reliable in service) doesn't fill me with hope. Given that 170s and 158s are doing most of the work for the unreliable HSTs, will it make much difference not being able to use the classic sets?

They've had more refurbs in service than classics in recent days. Given the number of classic sets they have, availability (and by extension ScotRail's maintenance) has been diabolical.

CJSwan · 19 Nov 2019

Two refurbs out today and three classics, although one of the latter failed at Perth on the 07:07 Glasgow to Inverness and it was replaced by a 170 for the rest of its diagram.

All according to a post in the Scottish Railways: Past and Present group on Facebook.

toot toot · 19 Nov 2019

CEN60 said:
Even more astonishingly - I believe the land the yard was on had been sold off & it had to be bought back!!!!!!

I believe it was repurchased from a FOC by the Scotrail/Network Rail alliance.
Another rumour doing the rounds was it would be used as an electric traction depot once the wires are stretched to Perth from Dunblane. I think the trees may have grown back by the time this happens.

DannyMich2018 · 19 Nov 2019

Highland37 said:
Is there any way of knowing if Scotrail have applied for or got dispensation to operate the unrefurbished HSTs into 2020?

Well with how few of the classics have been in use recently I wouldn't think this is a much of a problem as the 2 or so daily Classics in service can be absorbed by more use of refurbs or 170/158s.

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