Nottigham Express Transit

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/route-revealed-possible-tram-extensions-2693315

Ambitious plans to extend Nottingham's tram network have been revealed, showing the possible route the tram could take to link the city with East Midlands Airport and Derby.

Plans have been sent to the Government by Derby and Nottingham city councils, showing the route from Nottingham to Derby, taking in Toton and Long Eaton, as well as a separate arm to East Midlands Airportvia Castle Donington.


The map is about as clear as mud and doesn't match the article....



The red square in the middle is Toton HS2, you can then see the tram snaking between the M1 and HS2, crossing over the M1/A50 just north of M1 J24a, to the rail freight terminal and onto the airport.
From Toton HS2 you can see it more or less heading due west via Borrowash, Derwent Trianglem to Derby City Centre.

They've been shortlisted for the next round of the Transforming Cities fund so they now get some funding to do the fully detailed plans. The yellow lines are the "Classic Compatible" Links.

Shorter extensions, including to the yet-to-be-built 3,000 home development at Clifton pastures, and a second through Netherfield to Gedling are also still being considered, and may be included in the main bid.

Gosh, that would be some "extension". Connecting two cities together by tram would be pretty significant. Might even be the seed for within-Derby tram lines (no idea if it would be useful or wanted).

Suppose its the HS2 hub effect but previously it was the Clifton line that was proposed to be extended to the Airport, and which would be far quicker; 56mins is quoted for the tram which is largely equivalent to the current Skylink Nottingham (via Long Eaton) bus but around 16 minutes longer than the Skylink Clifton (continuing to Nottingham) bus.

SCH117X said:

Suppose its the HS2 hub effect but previously it was the Clifton line that was proposed to be extended to the Airport, and which would be far quicker; 56mins is quoted for the tram which is largely equivalent to the current Skylink Nottingham (via Long Eaton) bus but around 16 minutes longer than the Skylink Clifton (continuing to Nottingham) bus.

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I don't know if it's just me but the line to Toton feels very slow. Whilst extending it will be fantastic for connecting people who live along the route, for people needing to get to Nottingham a train service from the hub to Nottingham station would probably be of more use. Definitely in favour of extending the tram system in any form though!

theshillito said:

Gosh, that would be some "extension". Connecting two cities together by tram would be pretty significant. Might even be the seed for within-Derby tram lines (no idea if it would be useful or wanted).

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I wonder whether they'll have to rename it from Nottingham Express Transit if it reaches Derby Definitely something I'd like to see though! Tram lines within Derby could be actually quite useful to combat it's rather terrible congestion problems. Maybe an A52 park and ride closer to Derby (similar to the one in Toton) could help get people out of their cars before they reach the city. Would help greatly with congestion, pollution and helping to regenerate Derby City Center!

Jozhua said:

I don't know if it's just me but the line to Toton feels very slow. Whilst extending it will be fantastic for connecting people who live along the route, for people needing to get to Nottingham a train service from the hub to Nottingham station would probably be of more use. Definitely in favour of extending the tram system in any form though!

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The top speed of the trams is about 45mph and on their journey into Nottingham they stop frequently, so the tram journey time between central Nottingham and Toton will probably be just under 30min. A connecting train (which is probably what the yellow lines on the map are) can do it in under 15. So the tram will be of little relevance to central Nottingham but important for connecting western suburban destinations such as the University.

Going west from Toton is open country with a couple of villages before the Derby built-up area. The tram will obviously be quicker here and probably the fastest way to those villages and whatever Derby suburbs it passes through. But the amount of housing is much less than the corresponding journey into Nottingham and there are no major destinations served to compare with the University and QMC. The destinations in Derby are around and beyond Midland station where again a connecting train will be quicker. So I think a tram to Derby will struggle to get the ridership to make a business case. A tram-train-type vehicle (but not necessarily running on heavy rail) with a top speed of 60mph and suitable signalling would help, although it's hard to see how current such designs could be fitted through the narrow streets in central Nottingham.

A Toton-Airport route provides good links from Long Eaton into Toton and Nottingham but as mentioned above would take far too long to be competitive between Nottingham and the airport. For journeys from western parts of Nottingham it might not even compete with the Skylink. It might be the quickest way between Toton and the Airport but this isn't a big market. The catchment of EMA is mostly local with few people making a journey long enough to use HS2, and those that do are probably motivated by having found a cheap flight and therefore price rather than time sensitive.

Jozhua said:

I don't know if it's just me but the line to Toton feels very slow. Whilst extending it will be fantastic for connecting people who live along the route, for people needing to get to Nottingham a train service from the hub to Nottingham station would probably be of more use. Definitely in favour of extending the tram system in any form though!




I wonder whether they'll have to rename it from Nottingham Express Transit if it reaches Derby Definitely something I'd like to see though! Tram lines within Derby could be actually quite useful to combat it's rather terrible congestion problems. Maybe an A52 park and ride closer to Derby (similar to the one in Toton) could help get people out of their cars before they reach the city. Would help greatly with congestion, pollution and helping to regenerate Derby City Center!

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Just make Derby a suburb of Nottingham - job done

For HS2 wasn't the original plan to have an every 10 minute Derby to Toton to Nottingham shuttle taking about 10 minutes? With sensible pricing and through ticketing that would make West Nottingham East Derby to city centre commuting much quicker provided the interchange at Toton is good - jump on the tram outside UoN/Nottingham Science Park hope off at Toton, onto NET Express train and into Derby.... Ideally you'd have a cross platform interchange at Toton have the tram stop on top of the station like Nottingham (Midland) but directly connected to the platforms below.

While the end to end journey would be rubbish Long Eaton to UoN, Borrowash to Nottingham Science Park, Derby to Long Eaton (northern end), QMC to Long Eaton, Toton to NG2 would all benefit from such a route. That being said people do Hucknall to Nottingham even if the Robin Hood Line would be quicker.

I see the points about low running speeds above. Maybe a similar vehicle to the class 399 tram train used in Sheffield could be suitable? It reaches 60mph and navigates fairly tight corners and narrow streets in the city center section of Sheffield. (however potentially not as tight as the corners of the Toton line)

Perhaps running a tram train from QMC, stopping at Beeston, Attenborough and Toton hub before taking a dedicated line to Derby, running through Long Eaton, Borrowash, Spondon and Chaddesden could be popular, provided the section between Toton and Derby kept fairly high running speeds?

Hopefully some more developed tram train rolling stock could be available in the future, it's still early days for the UK tram train so who knows what the future may hold!

Jozhua said:

I see the points about low running speeds above. Maybe a similar vehicle to the class 399 tram train used in Sheffield could be suitable? It reaches 60mph and navigates fairly tight corners and narrow streets in the city center section of Sheffield. (however potentially not as tight as the corners of the Toton line)

Perhaps running a tram train from QMC, stopping at Beeston, Attenborough and Toton hub before taking a dedicated line to Derby, running through Long Eaton, Borrowash, Spondon and Chaddesden could be popular, provided the section between Toton and Derby kept fairly high running speeds?

Hopefully some more developed tram train rolling stock could be available in the future, it's still early days for the UK tram train so who knows what the future may hold!

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Yes that's the sort of thing I was thinking of. That vehicle is 60mph capable. However Nottingham trams are narrower and there are tighter radii in the city centre than anything at Sheffield, so re-engineering would most likely be needed. But that would be simpler if it was a high-speed tram rather than a tram-train, so didn't have to serve platforms on shared tracks which have to be further back to clear the loading gauge. You might get that sort of vehicle as far as Midland station NET platforms, but probalby not round the Lace Market curve (18m radius I think).

theshillito said:

Gosh, that would be some "extension". Connecting two cities together by tram would be pretty significant. Might even be the seed for within-Derby tram lines (no idea if it would be useful or wanted).

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As a Derby resident, I'm not convinced it should be a high priority given how expensive it would be.

A fully integrated bus network with Mango across the board would be more useful and wouldn't cost that much to set up.

kevjs said:

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/route-revealed-possible-tram-extensions-2693315

Ambitious plans to extend Nottingham's tram network have been revealed, showing the possible route the tram could take to link the city with East Midlands Airport and Derby.

Plans have been sent to the Government by Derby and Nottingham city councils, showing the route from Nottingham to Derby, taking in Toton and Long Eaton, as well as a separate arm to East Midlands Airportvia Castle Donington.


The map is about as clear as mud and doesn't match the article....

The red square in the middle is Toton HS2, you can then see the tram snaking between the M1 and HS2, crossing over the M1/A50 just north of M1 J24a, to the rail freight terminal and onto the airport.
From Toton HS2 you can see it more or less heading due west via Borrowash, Derwent Trianglem to Derby City Centre.

They've been shortlisted for the next round of the Transforming Cities fund so they now get some funding to do the fully detailed plans. The yellow lines are the "Classic Compatible" Links.

Shorter extensions, including to the yet-to-be-built 3,000 home development at Clifton pastures, and a second through Netherfield to Gedling are also still being considered, and may be included in the main bid.

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thank you for unpicking that shocking diagram!

Regular as clockwork, another vehicle stuck on the tram bridge: https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/van-stuck-tram-tracks-caused-2974670

jfowkes said:

Regular as clockwork, another vehicle stuck on the tram bridge: https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/van-stuck-tram-tracks-caused-2974670

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Broad daylight, *plenty* of signage - should be a prosecution for 'driving without due care and attention' or similar - you can't possibly be paying proper attention to the road if you do this.

Also, I wonder if you could put in a 'virtual' barrier - like one of those ads sprayed on sports pitches which looks 3d from certain angles but is actually flat - tram drivers would obviously know to ignore it but it might catch a distracted driver's eye more than signage. (The problems with real, retractable barriers probably rule them out - they seem to cause more problems than they solve).

duffield said:

Broad daylight, *plenty* of signage - should be a prosecution for 'driving without due care and attention' or similar - you can't possibly be paying proper attention to the road if you do this.

Also, I wonder if you could put in a 'virtual' barrier - like one of those ads sprayed on sports pitches which looks 3d from certain angles but is actually flat - tram drivers would obviously know to ignore it but it might catch a distracted driver's eye more than signage. (The problems with real, retractable barriers probably rule them out - they seem to cause more problems than they solve).

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I really think this needs to be looked into now. It happened again today, and happened at the Queens Medical Centre very recently as well. I just can't understand how drivers keep doing this. It's just common sense not to drive onto a train track...

On the stretch near to NG2 where it is a road but for trams only, we almost collided with a car the other day when the tram was following the route and a car took the wrong road. The roads are signed properly, it is clear negligence if you stray onto a section of track that is tram only.

Are there any plans at all to stop this from happening?

BJames said:

I really think this needs to be looked into now. It happened again today, and happened at the Queens Medical Centre very recently as well. I just can't understand how drivers keep doing this. It's just common sense not to drive onto a train track...

On the stretch near to NG2 where it is a road but for trams only, we almost collided with a car the other day when the tram was following the route and a car took the wrong road. The roads are signed properly, it is clear negligence if you stray onto a section of track that is tram only.

Are there any plans at all to stop this from happening?

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More and more signs and bollards keep getting put up. Yet drivers keep failing to pay attention to the road.

Lenton Lane's bridge over the railway line should become a bus plug - will stop Sat Nav's routing people down there and provide safer / wider footpaths and cycle track too. Should help reduce the queuing traffic cutting through when the ring road snarls up.

While it is very annoying for tram users and I'm sure NET would prefer it didn't happen, I suspect that any substantial work beyond "more signage" is simply not worth the costs and risks involved.

jfowkes said:

not worth the costs and risks involved

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Question is, how much money is NET losing from these incidents? When it happens, how much do they lose by arranging bus acceptance and removal of the vehicles from the tracks? Also, if it's that regular an occurance, how many people are put off even using the tram?

As this thread has been resurrected. There have been exhibitions in the last week about the new Fairham development on the edge of Clifton. The PDF details of the exhibition are available from the Fairham website https://fairhamlife.co.uk/. The plans provide route protection for an extension to the Tram network through the site should the relevant authorities want to expand the network in the future. Maps on pages 4,5 & 13 just about show the route it would take.

kevjs said:

More and more signs and bollards keep getting put up. Yet drivers keep failing to pay attention to the road.

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It reminds me of the situation with the three-mile tidal causeway across to Holy Island (Lindisfarne).

Despite numerous warning signs (including electronic ones showing the safe crossing times)...


Holy Island Causeway by Ian Britton, on Flickr

... the RNLI are regularly called out to rescue stranded motorists. You can't fix stupid!


Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-18365014

theshillito said:

Question is, how much money is NET losing from these incidents? When it happens, how much do they lose by arranging bus acceptance and removal of the vehicles from the tracks? Also, if it's that regular an occurance, how many people are put off even using the tram?

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Good point - I was having a look through twitter and although most of the comments at these times are people annoyed at the incredibly stupid car driver, there are people mentioning how annoying it is that the service keeps getting disrupted. I'm sure this really impacts reliability and faith in the tram system.

transmanche said:

It reminds me of the situation with the three-mile tidal causeway across to Holy Island (Lindisfarne).

... the RNLI are regularly called out to rescue stranded motorists. You can't fix stupid!

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This really is unbelievable - but the same principle. "More signs" is probably all that will be done, but it is just unbelievable that some people keep driving onto the track!

Steveoh said:

As this thread has been resurrected. There have been exhibitions in the last week about the new Fairham development on the edge of Clifton. The PDF details of the exhibition are available from the Fairham website https://fairhamlife.co.uk/. The plans provide route protection for an extension to the Tram network through the site should the relevant authorities want to expand the network in the future. Maps on pages 4,5 & 13 just about show the route it would take.

View attachment 70593

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Interesting - thanks for this.

The Nottingham Post is reporting that the council is going to vote on developing the business case for 3 extensions.

1. Extending from Clifton South into a new development which I assume is the one mentioned in the previous post
2. The expected extension to HS2 but also carrying on to Long Eaton
3. A complety new line East to racecourse Park and ride

It also says it will support the extention to Kimberly and Langley Mill but I assume that is over a border and hence not for them to promote directly.

Plans for two tram extensions and new line take big step forward https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/plans-two-tram-extensions-whole-3938886#ICID=Android_NottinghamPostNewApp_AppShare

DDB said:

The Nottingham Post is reporting that the council is going to vote on developing the business case for 3 extensions.

1. Extending from Clifton South into a new development which I assume is the one mentioned in the previous post
2. The expected extension to HS2 but also carrying on to Long Eaton
3. A complety new line East to racecourse Park and ride

It also says it will support the extention to Kimberly and Langley Mill but I assume that is over a border and hence not for them to promote directly.

Plans for two tram extensions and new line take big step forward https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/plans-two-tram-extensions-whole-3938886#ICID=Android_NottinghamPostNewApp_AppShare

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This link is not working for me.
Are these proposed routes materially different from those already released in earlier D2N2 briefings?
https://www.emcouncils.gov.uk/write/NET_Extensions_-_presentation.pdf

The actual link is https://www.nottinghampost.com/news...86#ICID=Android_NottinghamPostNewApp_AppShare Not much details of where the routes actually would be, but I doubt they are materially different - however building the business case and the inevtiabe consultation would no doubt have changes - the buggest differences is proably the eastern one going only to the P&R (presumably easier to justify the cost when some of the match funding needed would come from developer contributions) with both Gedling and Radcliffe on Trent still being on the cards in the longer term (the transforming cities bid references the latter).