Oyster and Crossrail

Taunton · 26 Mar 2018

bb21 said:
They could just install a good number of standalone readers with clear signage

This split arrangement is going to be incomprehensible to people transferring between terminals at Heathrow who do not speak English; it's probably the one point in the whole of London where such a group is common.

Stand alone readers without gates also have a poor record in London. The German style where they are installed just like a gateline, but without actual gates, seems ignored. The DLR (and W&C at Waterloo) seem to install them in any old corner, which has long given issues for air passengers arriving at London City airport station. Some DLR readers are up at platform level (eg Tower Gateway), others are down in the public street at foot of stairs (West Ferry), some are head on, and others sideways.

The press statement said that all concessions will be valid on all sections of Crossrail.

It seems unlikely that the Freedom Pass, paid for by London Boroughs, will be valid for a journey from Maidenhead to Reading. Bot how the many who touch in with it in London are to touch out outside London remains to be seen. I wonder about travel to places like Slough; the Freedom Pass is valid to there on the 81 bus from Hounslow.

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matt_world2004 · 26 Mar 2018

bb21 said:
That seems a silly way of doing it.

They could just install a good number of standalone readers with clear signage (very important) if people were supposed to be able to avoid them anyway, and leave the concourse unobstructed. The space would be much appreciated at busier times.

I guess it was felt that standalone validators were not prominent enough for the size of the platforms.

bb21 · 26 Mar 2018

Taunton said:
This split arrangement is going to be incomprehensible to people transferring between terminals at Heathrow who do not speak English; it's probably the one point in the whole of London where such a group is common.

Stand alone readers without gates also have a poor record in London. The German style where they are installed just like a gateline, but without actual gates, seems ignored. The DLR (and W&C at Waterloo) seem to install them in any old corner, which has long given issues for air passengers arriving at London City airport station. Some DLR readers are up at platform level (eg Tower Gateway), others are down in the public street at foot of stairs (West Ferry), some are head on, and others sideways.

matt_world2004 said:
I guess it was felt that standalone validators were not prominent enough for the size of the platforms.

Definitely not in the seemingly random way they appear to be positioned at some stations. It would require a good deal of thought how it could be strategically located to catch people's attention even during busier times, and not cause a massive queue. The issue I have with some busier stations, especially on the DLR, is how closely the readers appear to be bunched, and the congestion they cause especially in the afternoon peak around some station exits.

I don't know enough about the German model to be able to really comment, but do like the idea. Perhaps they could give that consideration and do a trial run somewhere to gauge impact.

MikeWh · 27 Mar 2018

Taunton said:
It seems unlikely that the Freedom Pass, paid for by London Boroughs, will be valid for a journey from Maidenhead to Reading. Bot how the many who touch in with it in London are to touch out outside London remains to be seen. I wonder about travel to places like Slough; the Freedom Pass is valid to there on the 81 bus from Hounslow.

The freedom pass is already valid to Shenfield, but only if using TfL-Rail services. Likewise Watford Junction and Cheshunt but only on Overground services.

Samuel88 · 27 Mar 2018

Taunton said:
This split arrangement is going to be incomprehensible to people transferring between terminals at Heathrow who do not speak English; it's probably the one point in the whole of London where such a group is common.

Stand alone readers without gates also have a poor record in London. The German style where they are installed just like a gateline, but without actual gates, seems ignored. The DLR (and W&C at Waterloo) seem to install them in any old corner, which has long given issues for air passengers arriving at London City airport station. Some DLR readers are up at platform level (eg Tower Gateway), others are down in the public street at foot of stairs (West Ferry), some are head on, and others sideways.

It seems unlikely that the Freedom Pass, paid for by London Boroughs, will be valid for a journey from Maidenhead to Reading. Bot how the many who touch in with it in London are to touch out outside London remains to be seen. I wonder about travel to places like Slough; the Freedom Pass is valid to there on the 81 bus from Hounslow.

Isn't it it under the act that established TfL that the freedom pass is valid on all services run by them at least during off peak hours?

PeterC · 27 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
Isn't it it under the act that established TfL that the freedom pass is valid on all services run by them at least during off peak hours?

As far as I am aware the legal requirement is just the standard ENCTS validity.

TrainTube · 17 Nov 2019

higthomas said:
It wouldn't be much different to the ridiculous Shepperton situation.

Don't even get me started on the oyster zoning South West of London compared to the rest of London

JonathanH · 17 Nov 2019

TrainTube said:
Don't even get me started on the oyster zoning South West of London compared to the rest of London

Oh go on.

Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have split Zone 5 into Zones 5 and 6 for National Rail services many years ago when the underground stations mainly stayed in Zone 5?

Taunton · 17 Nov 2019

We now have yet another "trial" on-demand bus service, in Ealing, started by TfL (however many have they done over the years), this time inevitably linked to an App, as described by TfL here

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ember/second-on-demand-bus-trial-begins-today

It seems this DOES take Freedom passes and has it's own form of capping, but does NOT take Oyster. Which seems a surprising combination and a further muddying of the waters.

matt_world2004 · 17 Nov 2019

Taunton said:
We now have yet another "trial" on-demand bus service, in Ealing, started by TfL (however many have they done over the years), this time inevitably linked to an App, as described by TfL here

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ember/second-on-demand-bus-trial-begins-today

It seems this DOES take Freedom passes and has it's own form of capping, but does NOT take Oyster. Which seems a surprising combination and a further muddying of the waters.

It takes encts passes too.the way they take these passes is not that technically advanced all the customer does is email them the pass number and a free travel entitlement is placed on their account.

hkstudent · 18 Nov 2019

Taunton said:
We now have yet another "trial" on-demand bus service, in Ealing, started by TfL (however many have they done over the years), this time inevitably linked to an App, as described by TfL here

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ember/second-on-demand-bus-trial-begins-today

It seems this DOES take Freedom passes and has it's own form of capping, but does NOT take Oyster. Which seems a surprising combination and a further muddying of the waters.

The DRT (Demand Reponse Transit) is running in a semi-private model, which TfL doesn't subsidise the service.
So, it can't be included into the bus&tram capping, but instead, have a seperate charging scheme, just like those non-London buses running in London.

The cost of DRT is higher than conventional bus, which TfL may need to do their calculation for a new busienss model. Of course, DRT may get to London earlier if any private operators run their own DRT in London.

matt_world2004 · 18 Nov 2019

hkstudent said:
The DRT (Demand Reponse Transit) is running in a semi-private model, which TfL doesn't subsidise the service.
So, it can't be included into the bus&tram capping, but instead, have a seperate charging scheme, just like those non-London buses running in London.

The cost of DRT is higher than conventional bus, which TfL may need to do their calculation for a new busienss model. Of course, DRT may get to London earlier if any private operators run their own DRT in London.

No it's not, it's running as a trial and as it's running empty most of the time it's attracting no passengers so running at a huge loss.

hkstudent · 18 Nov 2019

matt_world2004 said:
No it's not, it's running as a trial and as it's running empty most of the time it's attracting no passengers so running at a huge loss.

Yeah, ineed, that's a trial.
The thing is, the price difference between TfL buses and the DRT is too high, which deemed not worth it.

DRT is sucessful in other parts of England as it covers the whole city, and the difference of fare between the comventional bus and DRT is not big...

(Seems pretty off-topic now, so I think we may stop here for the DRT topic?)

TrainTube · 19 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
Oh go on.

Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have split Zone 5 into Zones 5 and 6 for National Rail services many years ago when the underground stations mainly stayed in Zone 5?

No, I'm suggesting that many stations in Surrey deserve to be included in the oyster zone, considering the fact that other counties are included. I believe the Shepperton Branch should be in zone 7/8, and that stations up to Weybridge at least, and Cobham should be included, as well as Ashtead and Leatherhead. Everywhere else in London I am seeing new stations in the zone, for Kent, Essex, Hertfordshire, yet for South West London nothing has happened despite many of the stations being closer to London than stations like Cheshunt or Grays.

hkstudent · 19 Nov 2019

TrainTube said:
No, I'm suggesting that many stations in Surrey deserve to be included in the oyster zone, considering the fact that other counties are included. I believe the Shepperton Branch should be in zone 7/8, and that stations up to Weybridge at least, and Cobham should be included, as well as Ashtead and Leatherhead. Everywhere else in London I am seeing new stations in the zone, for Kent, Essex, Hertfordshire, yet for South West London nothing has happened despite many of the stations being closer to London than stations like Cheshunt or Grays.

It's up to the willingness of the respective TOC and any franchise requirement governing that.
Southwestern is not really keen on getting into Oyster zone, particularly you can see that some stations in SW are clearly more expensive in zonal wise. Epsom is particularly a good case, which the place only be getting Oyster PAYG (but not zone) early this year.

MikeWh · 19 Nov 2019

hkstudent said:
It's up to the willingness of the respective TOC and any franchise requirement governing that.
Southwestern is not really keen on getting into Oyster zone, particularly you can see that some stations in SW are clearly more expensive in zonal wise. Epsom is particularly a good case, which the place only be getting Oyster PAYG (but not zone) early this year.

Epsom was a good example of the DfT asking for the most difficult requirements of a franchise. Accepting Oyster was a GTR franchise agreement as they operate the station, but SWR set the fares. It's no wonder it took so long to happen.

Also, Epsom is actually in zone 9 and capped as such, but the price of season tickets to zones 1-6 is far cheaper than the zone 1-9 version. Thus GTR/SWR prefer it to be unzoned, but if you have zone 9 on a travelcard anyway it is valid and will open the gates.

hkstudent · 20 Nov 2019

MikeWh said:
Epsom was a good example of the DfT asking for the most difficult requirements of a franchise. Accepting Oyster was a GTR franchise agreement as they operate the station, but SWR set the fares. It's no wonder it took so long to happen.

Also, Epsom is actually in zone 9 and capped as such, but the price of season tickets to zones 1-6 is far cheaper than the zone 1-9 version. Thus GTR/SWR prefer it to be unzoned, but if you have zone 9 on a travelcard anyway it is valid and will open the gates.

Indeed, Ewell West (SWR) was set to Zone 6 to compete with Ewell East (GTR). Sadly, oyster can't differentiate operators at the same station, which GTR can't charge zone 6 for the station to out-compete SWR...

A theortical question, if someone gets a zone1-9 paper season ticket, can he/she be penalised when getting through Epsom barrier?

sprunt · 20 Nov 2019

hkstudent said:
A theortical question, if someone gets a zone1-9 paper season ticket, can he/she be penalised when getting through Epsom barrier?

Penalised for what?

hkstudent · 20 Nov 2019

sprunt said:
Penalised for what?

Ticketless travel, as Zone 9 paper ticket "seems not valid"?

MikeWh · 20 Nov 2019

hkstudent said:
Indeed, Ewell West (SWR) was set to Zone 6 to compete with Ewell East (GTR). Sadly, oyster can't differentiate operators at the same station, which GTR can't charge zone 6 for the station to out-compete SWR...

Both Ewell stations were put in zone 6 a loooong time ago. Probably at the same time as the branches to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were. This was part of an encouragement to use the branches which was at the time (and maybe still is?) funded by the councils. Despite the keenness of a former Transport Secretary and many local rail users, neither GTR nor SWR want to put Epsom in zone 6.

hkstudent said:
A theortical question, if someone gets a zone1-9 paper season ticket, can he/she be penalised when getting through Epsom barrier?

sprunt said:
Penalised for what?

hkstudent said:
Ticketless travel, as Zone 9 paper ticket "seems not valid"?

I have confirmation from the GTR Press office that a zone 9 travelcard is valid at Epsom whether on paper or a smartcard. It's not advised for Epsom residents unless their commute takes them to Amersham, Chesham or Brentwood.

This page on the TfL website also seems to clarify the situation.

hkstudent · 20 Nov 2019

MikeWh said:
Both Ewell stations were put in zone 6 a loooong time ago. Probably at the same time as the branches to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were. This was part of an encouragement to use the branches which was at the time (and maybe still is?) funded by the councils. Despite the keenness of a former Transport Secretary and many local rail users, neither GTR nor SWR want to put Epsom in zone 6.

I have confirmation from the GTR Press office that a zone 9 travelcard is valid at Epsom whether on paper or a smartcard. It's not advised for Epsom residents unless their commute takes them to Amersham, Chesham or Brentwood.

This page on the TfL website also seems to clarify the situation.

I think so, if there are no funding for that, it would just be removed. As TOCs can't afford the shortfall.

packermac · 20 Nov 2019

Taunton said:
It seems unlikely that the Freedom Pass, paid for by London Boroughs, will be valid for a journey from Maidenhead to Reading. Bot how the many who touch in with it in London are to touch out outside London remains to be seen. I wonder about travel to places like Slough; the Freedom Pass is valid to there on the 81 bus from Hounslow.

Although bus passes are national of course so all TFL are "giving away" on the London Freedom pass regarding the 81 is a few pre 0930 and after 2300 Monday to Friday journeys between the BA headquarters junction in Longford and Slough.

Mojo · 20 Nov 2019

Please when replying to specific points in this thread don’t forget that much of it was posted over a year and a half ago, and many assertions and guesses made upstream such as Heathrow gatelines having a gap in the middle have not proven to be true.

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