Through ticketing for journeys involving transfer between stations on foot

Journeyman · 19 Nov 2019

Hello all...is there such a thing as an official list of stations where interchange involves exiting one station and walking to another?

I know there's potentially a few, as I did it at Wigan recently and regularly do it in Glasgow, so I wondered if anyone can provide me with further examples. It doesn't need to be exhaustive, I just need to research some ticketing options where part of the journey is on foot.

For this particular project, the official out-of-station Oyster/contactless interchanges in London are not relevant.

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geoffk · 19 Nov 2019

Bradford Interchange to Forster Square - I've done this to travel between Hebden Bridge and Shipley or Keighley. A higher fare applies via Leeds.

swt_passenger · 19 Nov 2019

Windsor Central & Riverside.

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

Journeyman said:
Hello all...is there such a thing as an official list of stations where interchange involves exiting one station and walking to another?

I know there's potentially a few, as I did it at Wigan recently and regularly do it in Glasgow, so I wondered if anyone can provide me with further examples. It doesn't need to be exhaustive, I just need to research some ticketing options where part of the journey is on foot.

For this particular project, the official out-of-station Oyster/contactless interchanges in London are not relevant.

I'm not aware of an exhaustive list, however you can obtain a full list of 'fixed links' (including walks) from any station at www.brtimes.com

Many - but not all - are listed here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/46646.aspx ; the non-London ones with maps are as follows:-

Birmingham

Bradford

Burnley

Canterbury

Dorking

Glasgow

Hertford

Liverpool

Maidstone

Manchester

Newark

Southend

St Albans

Wakefield

Warrington

Wigan

Windsor

But that isn't a complete list; an example that isn't listed above includes New Mills Newtown <> New Mills Central

Journeyman · 19 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
I'm not aware of an exhaustive list, however you can obtain a full list of 'fixed links' (including walks) from any station at www.brtimes.com

Many - but not all - are listed here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/46646.aspx ; the non-London ones with maps are as follows:-

But that isn't a complete list; a couple of examples that isn't listed above are:

Pontefract Monkhill <> Pontefract Tanshelf

New Mills Newtown <> New Mills Central

Brilliant! That should keep me going for a while.

Kite159 · 19 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
Pontefract Monkhill <> Pontefract Tanshelf

Why would anybody walk between Monkhill & Tanshelf, there is a direct train?

Unless you meant Pontefract Baghill?

[.n] · 19 Nov 2019

The list seems to be missing

Dorchester South <-> Dorchester West

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

Burscough Bridge to Burscough Junction.

mm333 · 19 Nov 2019

I went from Chichester to Canterbury Route Not London recently and was directed to walk between Penge East and West

Paul Kelly · 19 Nov 2019

Here is the official list from the RDG timetable open data (which you can download from http://data.atoc.org/). Stations are all given as CRS codes.

Code:

ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN AFK AND ASI IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN AHS AND ABF IN   6 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN AHV AND NCM IN  11 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ALV AND ARP IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BAK AND QRB IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BCB AND BCJ IN  16 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BDQ AND BDI IN  16 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BFC AND BFA IN  60 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BFR AND LBG IN  23 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BHM AND BMO IN   8 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BHM AND BSW IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BIP AND BST IN   6 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BMN AND BMS IN  14 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BNC AND BYM IN  21 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BRI AND XDU IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BRT AND BPL IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BTH AND XDO IN   2 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN BXW AND BXX IN   9 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CBE AND CBW IN  17 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CDF AND CCB IN   3 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CLK AND KTH IN   9 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CPM AND XDN IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CTF AND CFB IN   6 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CTO AND NET IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN CWN AND COC IN  17 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN DCH AND DCW IN   8 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN DLE AND CAU IN  20 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN DLJ AND DLK IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN DPD AND DKG IN   3 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN EBR AND EBT IN  26 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ENC AND ENF IN  25 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ERI AND ERB IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN FKG AND FKK IN  30 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN FNB AND FNN IN  17 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN FOG AND WNP IN   9 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN FST AND LST IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN GLC AND GLQ IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN GNB AND GBL IN  26 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN GRK AND GXX IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN GRV AND GFY IN  20 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HEV AND HBF IN  16 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HFE AND HFN IN  30 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HGY AND HRY IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HHL AND HLL IN   3 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HKC AND HAC IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HMC AND QHC IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HTR AND HWA IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HTR AND HWE IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN HUL AND HUU IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN KGX AND LNE IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN KGX AND STP IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN KGX AND ZKX IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN KLN AND KLS IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN KLY AND KEB IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LIH AND LFL IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LIV AND LVC IN  12 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LOE AND KGX IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LOE AND STP IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LRB AND LRR IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LUT AND LUB IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN LVJ AND MRF IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN MDB AND MDE IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NCL AND NCZ IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NCT AND NNG IN  28 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NMC AND NMN IN  18 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NUF AND XET IN  13 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NUN AND NNN IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN NWX AND NXG IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PAR AND XDR IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PBO AND PBU IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PLY AND XDJ IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PNE AND PNW IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PNZ AND PNQ IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PRP AND PPR IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN PRR AND CCK IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN RDG AND RBU IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN RYD AND XRD IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SAA AND SAC IN  33 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SBF AND SBV IN   3 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SEE AND SEZ IN  19 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SEE AND SSA IN   8 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SGQ AND SCN IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SKV AND SKN IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SNE AND SCN IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SNE AND SGQ IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SOC AND SOV IN  13 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SPX AND KGX IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SPX AND STP IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN STP AND LNE IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN STP AND ZKX IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SVS AND STO IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN SWI AND XDK IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN TAD AND TTA IN   4 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN TOT AND XDP IN   2 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WAT AND WAE IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WBQ AND WAC IN  15 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WED AND WEO IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WED AND WER IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WGN AND WGW IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WHC AND WMW IN   7 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WHD AND WHP IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WHY AND UWL IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WKF AND WKK IN  24 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WNC AND WNR IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WSE AND WNI IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN WWA AND WWC IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN YVJ AND YVP IN  50 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZBS AND MYB IN   2 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZEO AND ROE IN  10 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZFR AND FNY IN   5 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZHR AND CIR IN  20 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZPA AND PAD IN   1 MINUTES                      
ADDITIONAL LINK: WALK BETWEEN ZTL AND HRN IN  10 MINUTES

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

Some of those are a bit optimistic, and assume full fitness. Also take no account of crossing busy roads.

causton · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
Some of those are a bit optimistic, and assume full fitness. Also take no account of crossing busy roads.

They will be added to the minimum connection times at each end.

So St Pancras to Kings Cross is 1 minute + 15 at STP + 15 at KGX.

They're not actually expecting you get off a train at 1730 at STP and get on at 1731 at KGX! :lol:

alistairlees · 19 Nov 2019

causton said:
They will be added to the minimum connection times at each end.

So St Pancras to Kings Cross is 1 minute + 15 at STP + 15 at KGX.

They're not actually expecting you get off a train at 1730 at STP and get on at 1731 at KGX!

Although actually some journey planners are using interchange times of 10 mins at STP and KGX when a journey involves changing at one (or both) and the walk between the two. You can try a journey from St Albans to York at 10.00 tomorrow on the National Rail website to prove it.

alistairlees · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
Some of those are a bit optimistic, and assume full fitness. Also take no account of crossing busy roads.

They are all on the conservative side once interchange times are taken into account.

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

alistairlees said:
They are all on the conservative side once interchange times are taken into account.

i don’t really get the point if the real connection times are additional to the station to station walk. e.g. if the minimum connection time for Wigan North Western is 5 minutes whether you’re going from platform 5 to platform 6 or walking from Wallgate to platform 1, surely these are misleading timings.

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

How does split ticketing work, when you need to ensure you allow minimum connection times?

Hadders · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
How does split ticketing work, when you need to ensure you allow minimum connection times?

Not an issue if you remain on the same train.

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

Sorry perhaps split ticketing was the wrong word. I mean if you have a through journey involving a walk between stations, and for whatever reason you split the journey down into a leg either side of the walk connection, do you have to add all the three lots of minutes together to ensure your second ticket meets the minimum connection time, for the purpose of being allowed to take a later train if your first one is delayed?

e.g. Southport to Carlisle - splitting tickets at Wigan. Currently the connection for a through ticket can be as little as about 13 minutes, but if you’re frail or struggling with luggage you might find that inadequate so would book Southport to Wallgate and Wigan NW to Carlisle. How much time should you allow in order to be covered in the event of delay?

alistairlees · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
Sorry perhaps split ticketing was the wrong word. I mean if you have a through journey involving a walk between stations, and for whatever reason you split the journey down into a leg either side of the walk connection, do you have to add all the three lots of minutes together to ensure your second ticket meets the minimum connection time, for the purpose of being allowed to take a later train if your first one is delayed?

e.g. Southport to Carlisle - splitting tickets at Wigan. Currently the connection for a through ticket can be as little as about 13 minutes, but if you’re frail or struggling with luggage you might find that inadequate so would book Southport to Wallgate and Wigan NW to Carlisle. How much time should you allow in order to be covered in the event of delay?

11 minutes.

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

Thanks for the concise reply!

Hadders · 19 Nov 2019

Using your Wigan example you have to allow:

Minimum connection time at Wigan Wallgate (5 mins)
Walking time from Wallgate to Northwestern (1 minute)
Minimum connection time at Wigan Northwestern (5 minutes)

Total 11 minutes.

If you don’t leave the minimum times between arrival at Wallgate and departure from Northwestern then you won’t be covered in the event of a delay repay claim, or potentially for onward travel in the case of disruption.

You can of course leave allow more than the minimum time.

Journey planners are programmed with details of the connection times and you can see them by using the Station Info page on BRtimes.

alistairlees · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
i don’t really get the point if the real connection times are additional to the station to station walk. e.g. if the minimum connection time for Wigan North Western is 5 minutes whether you’re going from platform 5 to platform 6 or walking from Wallgate to platform 1, surely these are misleading timings.

The point is to allow sufficient interchange time for the worst case (longest distance walk at an average pace perhaps). Clearly some walks are less.

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

@Kite159 yes I meant Baghill but I have since realised it doesn't have a fixed link to Monkhill, though I think it might have done in the past. I've certainly done the walk myself several times, fixed link or not!

trainophile said:
i don’t really get the point if the real connection times are additional to the station to station walk. e.g. if the minimum connection time for Wigan North Western is 5 minutes whether you’re going from platform 5 to platform 6 or walking from Wallgate to platform 1, surely these are misleading timings.

I'm not sure what you propose instead? The connection times are long enough already in my opinion.

Where I think some websites are lacking is the ability to turn off walking interchanges; anyone who is keen to avoid walks can use a site that does allow this and/or additional interchange time if they wish, but ideally all sites would offer this.

trainophile said:
How does split ticketing work when you need to ensure you allow minimum connection times?

The same as through ticketing.

trainophile said:
e.g. Southport to Carlisle - splitting tickets at Wigan. Currently the connection for a through ticket can be as little as about 13 minutes, but if you’re frail or struggling with luggage you might find that inadequate so would book Southport to Wallgate and Wigan NW to Carlisle. How much time should you allow in order to be covered in the event of delay?

It's no different if you hold a through ticket or a combination of tickets. The minimum interchange times are for the journey. If people want to request additional interchange time, I would advise booking through a site that has that option (or use a ticket office or telesales).

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

I always book certain of my journeys on Trainsplit because it’s the only way I can avoid the Burscough Bridge to Junction long uphill trek, for which I see only 16 minutes is assigned.

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
I always book certain of my journeys on Trainsplit because it’s the only way I can avoid the Burscough Bridge to Junction long uphill trek, for which I see only 16 minutes is assigned.

Notwithstanding your understandable wish to avoid the walk, I'll just point out that the interchange time between trains is 20 minutes, in case anyone unfamiliar with this interchange is any doubt.

trainophile · 19 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
Notwithstanding your understandable wish to avoid the walk, I'll just point out that the interchange time between trains is 20 minutes, in case anyone unfamiliar with this interchange is any doubt.

The link in #10 says 16, so presumably there’s another 2 at each station? Still pretty challenging I think. I feel sorry for old people who don’t know any different and end up having to make that connection.

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
The link in #10 says 16, so presumably there’s another 2 at each station? Still pretty challenging I think. I feel sorry for old people who don’t know any different and end up having to make that connection.

Yes; see:

causton said:
They will be added to the minimum connection times at each end.

So St Pancras to Kings Cross is 1 minute + 15 at STP + 15 at KGX...

sheff1 · 19 Nov 2019

trainophile said:
I always book certain of my journeys on Trainsplit because it’s the only way I can avoid the Burscough Bridge to Junction long uphill trek, for which I see only 16 minutes is assigned.

When did that walk become uphill ? Last time I was there I recall it being almost flat .... or is that just because I am used to walking in Sheffield ?

sheff1 · 19 Nov 2019

Indigo2 said:
Here is the official list from the RDG timetable open data

I was surprised there was no link from Mancheste Piccadilly to Victoria. I thought it might be because it is quicker to walk than the advertised "transfer" time, but there is a link for Glasgow Central & Queen St where the same applies.

yorkie · 19 Nov 2019

sheff1 said:
I was surprised there was no link from Mancheste Piccadilly to Victoria. I thought it might be because it is quicker to walk than the advertised "transfer" time, but there is a link for Glasgow Central & Queen St where the same applies.

The fixed links between Glasgow Cen/Queen St are:
Walk 0001-0759
Bus 0800-2000
Walk 2001-2359

The fixed link between Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria is:
Transfer (make own way) 24 hrs

Through ticketing for journeys involving transfer between stations on foot

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