Impact of Friday working from home on PM Peak travel and off peak tickets

At the weekend I travelled from Welwyn Garden City to Westbury. I was surprised to be offered an 'Off Peak' ticket starting from WGC for the 1C91 1733 London Paddington to Paignton (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20364/2019-11-15/detailed), even though such tickets were not available from Paddington. I made the booking complete with seat reservations. When it came to it, the conductor grumbled and said I needed a peak ticket, but when I pointed it out that I had been offered the train by GWR's own website and had made reservations he didn't press it further and went on his way. I assume I shouldn't have been able to make this booking and this was a data error as discussed on the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/more-gwr-data-errors.195167/.

What surprised me even more was the train's loading. Even departing from Paddington at the height of the evening peak, the train (a 9 car 800/802) was only 2/3 full and from Reading 1/3 full and basically empty - perhaps 20% seat occupancy from Newbury. If my office is anything to go by, Friday peak travel is in free fall, as working from home increases and I imagine that the most enthusiastic home workers are those with longer commutes. I'm going to have a look to see what evidence I can find to quantify this.

There seems to be a real missed traffic opportunity for GWR and perhaps other long distance TOCs here. Given that long distance commuting is reducing on Fridays, long distance capacity that these commuters would have used on trains such as 1C91 could be opened up to 'weekend away' passengers with off peak (and the higher price end of advanced) tickets on earlier trains. This would increase the attractiveness of such weekend travel, enabling earlier arrival at the 'country end' destination and would reduce crowding on what is now the first train after the peak restriction ends (around 18:30 at Paddington if I remember correctly), improving things for those still leaving later.

What remains of peak revenue on Fridays could still be protected, by continuing to require 'Anytime' tickets for Friday AM Peak travel towards London. Even better, I assume that the way season tickets are priced means that even those travelling four days per week will stick with them and so that revenue is less threatened, although I know that there has been some move from season ticket to on the day tickets for those travelling less regularly. I would be interested to hear other observations...

I've gone in to the office recently on a Friday, and got a bit worried at how quiet Ipswich station was that I had check with the station staff, who pointed out that it was normally that quiet on a Friday.

I'm aware Virgin and LNER have been tweaking the Friday peak restrictions to cater for these changes in demand.

Some season tickets already take account of travel fewer days per week. However as someone who only travels one or two days per week by train, even the flexiseason tickets that are coming out are of no saving compared to the daily tickets, especially considering the operator restriction which is quite problematic when the office is right beside Cambridge North.

I dont think its because of an error of the data but the old 'Network Area rule' as Westbury is outside the map and if memory serves me correctly you are allowed to do the journey that you did because of that
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_expanded-0919.pdf

Unless that has changed

LNR is pretty quiet on a Friday. Of course, the upside of this is providing more capacity for the Friday "getaway".

On my commute from Basingstoke to London on SWR, Fridays are really quiet - sometimes I can be one of 5 people in the end carriage.

Mondays are going that way now too I notice (when there isn't disruption). I think on unreliable lines people are getting more and more used to working from home.

It is a pity these new patterns aren't being reflected in season ticket options.

Yep Friday from some London terminals seems to be low in the afternoon - I'd say its more an elongated, stretched out peak in the Southeast as people go for drinks, work from home, day off etc. I don't think the same can be said at Kings Cross or Euston though, although I imagine its actually paradoxically busier at off-peak with that cliff-edge in prices.

How does the 1733 load on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday?

It probably doesn't carry terribly many long-distance passengers at those prices, so there's going to be lots of room for commuters.

I've used the 1600 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly a couple of times on weeknights other than Friday recently from its first call, Stoke-on-Trent, and it has been less than half full on every occasion. Admittedly this is probably a much more severe example of price gouging than GWR.

kristiang85 said:

It is a pity these new patterns aren't being reflected in season ticket options.

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You can see it two ways:
- some sort of bulk buy discount should be available for people who commit to four days travel as well as those who travel five days a week
- if those who travel four days a week get cheaper tickets, the season ticket price will need to go up, perhaps considerably, for those who travel five days a week - is that really fair?

It is one of those things you can't change without creating winners and losers. Not everyone can work from home.

Smart people choose their work from home day on a day other than Friday to take advantage of the quieter Friday trains! Plus, if you have a 'dress down Friday' policy, one fewer shirt to iron

notverydeep said:

At the weekend I travelled from Welwyn Garden City to Westbury. I was surprised to be offered an 'Off Peak' ticket starting from WGC for the 1C91 1733 London Paddington to Paignton (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20364/2019-11-15/detailed), even though such tickets were not available from Paddington. I made the booking complete with seat reservations. When it came to it, the conductor grumbled and said I needed a peak ticket, but when I pointed it out that I had been offered the train by GWR's own website and had made reservations he didn't press it further and went on his way....

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Without knowing when you bought the ticket, it is difficult to say but the restriction code is 'YC' which currently bars departures from PAD during the evening between 1641-1830 inclusive ( http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=FPK&dest=WSB&rte=63&ldn=1&tkt=SVR ) but yes this is likely due to the recently reported data errors.

And yes having an itinerary or reservation issued in conjunction with the ticket does validate it.

Clip said:

I dont think its because of an error of the data but the old 'Network Area rule' as Westbury is outside the map and if memory serves me correctly you are allowed to do the journey that you did because of that
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_expanded-0919.pdf

Unless that has changed

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Not quite; if the origin was Peterborough or anywhere north of PBO, then yes it would be [intended to be] valid on any train out of Paddington.

JonathanH said:

You can see it two ways:
- some sort of bulk buy discount should be available for people who commit to four days travel as well as those who travel five days a week
- if those who travel four days a week get cheaper tickets, the season ticket price will need to go up, perhaps considerably, for those who travel five days a week - is that really fair?

It is one of those things you can't change without creating winners and losers. Not everyone can work from home.

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I'm sure there are many solutions that will be fair.

For example, a carnet with more than a 5% discount off peak time tickets - maybe you buy a carnet of 50 tickets and you get a 25% discount on peak fare prices.

Or a 'commuter railcard' that you pay, say, £600 for a year and you get peak tickets for off-peak prices.

Or indeed a DB-style 50% off card, which is similar.

Maybe annual season tickets are outdated and the railway needs to move with the times?

Otherwise people will just jump in their cars to work instead of paying the exorbitant one-off peak prices, and that does the railway nor the environment any good.

kristiang85 said:

Maybe annual season tickets are outdated and the railway needs to move with the times?

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I'd certainly say they are, yes - monthly direct debit with a 12-month contract would be a more usual way of doing things.

Bletchleyite said:

I'd certainly say they are, yes - monthly direct debit with a 12-month contract would be a more usual way of doing things.

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Absolutely agree there; it would certainly move the burden off many companies giving loans out at the beginning of the year to their staff.

kristiang85 said:

I'm sure there are many solutions that will be fair.

For example, a carnet with more than a 5% discount off peak time tickets - maybe you buy a carnet of 50 tickets and you get a 25% discount on peak fare prices.

Or a 'commuter railcard' that you pay, say, £600 for a year and you get peak tickets for off-peak prices.

Or indeed a DB-style 50% off card, which is similar.

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A season ticket used 5 days costs anything between 15% and 50% (rough figures) less than 5 anytime returns, depending on distance (and TOC).
A stored multi-journey ticket would need to be priced at slightly less discount per trip, to give some incentive to buy seasons, so (say) 10% up to 40%.
That's fine, and should be workable.

The problem arises with railcard-type suggestions: £600 for a 50% discount on a SOR would be a bargain from Wakefield, reasonabl e from Winchester but a rip-off from Weybridge. (Purely hypothetical examples, I haven't checked prices.)

Bletchleyite said:

I'd certainly say they are, yes - monthly direct debit with a 12-month contract would be a more usual way of doing things.

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I think would need to be ramped to prevent cancellation abuse..... Full fee in month one, then a decreasing monthly fee depending on term.

xotGD said:

Smart people choose their work from home day on a day other than Friday to take advantage of the quieter Friday trains! Plus, if you have a 'dress down Friday' policy, one fewer shirt to iron

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You may have said that in jest, but that's me! I normally try Wednesday (busiest train day into London) but other "herd-thinkers" always seem to arrange meetings then.

kristiang85 said:

Absolutely agree there; it would certainly move the burden off many companies giving loans out at the beginning of the year to their staff.

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Why at the beginning of the year? Staff renew season tickets throught the year.

Puffing Devil said:

I think would need to be ramped to prevent cancellation abuse..... Full fee in month one, then a decreasing monthly fee depending on term.

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It could presumably work exactly the same way as a season does now - the cancellation fee would be based on turning it into what you've already used. So if you cancelled the contract after 3 months, you would have to pay the additional amount up to the cost of 3 regular monthlies.

As an alternative you could do what Council Tax does and basically give you "12 for the price of 10", i.e. after paying 10 payments you get 2 months of travel free. But that's a nuisance for monthly budgeting.

westv said:

Why at the beginning of the year? Staff renew season tickets throught the year.

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There is a massive surge between Christmas and the 2nd January of people renewing to beat the increase. And once you take that policy once, you're set to renew on that date for life...

Last winter I worked in a booking office around that period and never had seen so many cheques in my life!

xotGD said:

Smart people choose their work from home day on a day other than Friday to take advantage of the quieter Friday trains! Plus, if you have a 'dress down Friday' policy, one fewer shirt to iron

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Its true - I have now gone on to a four shirt week. Hoping to move to a three shirt week next year.

kristiang85 said:

I'm sure there are many solutions that will be fair.

For example, a carnet with more than a 5% discount off peak time tickets - maybe you buy a carnet of 50 tickets and you get a 25% discount on peak fare prices.

Or a 'commuter railcard' that you pay, say, £600 for a year and you get peak tickets for off-peak prices.

Or indeed a DB-style 50% off card, which is similar.

Maybe annual season tickets are outdated and the railway needs to move with the times?

Otherwise people will just jump in their cars to work instead of paying the exorbitant one-off peak prices, and that does the railway nor the environment any good.

Click to expand...

Anything that forces a revamp of the system gets my vote, if only to fix all the pricing anomalies in the system. Looking at weeklies, I need to make four journeys from Walton-on-the-Naze to Wivenhoe in order to save money, just £3.20. If I can arrange my meetings to get off-peak tickets, the ticket just isn't worth it. If I was going to London, I would only need to make three journeys to save money, £26.90.

Walton-on-the-Naze to Wivenhoe
Weekly 40, Monthly 154, Annual 1604, Anytime Return 10.80

Walton-on-the-Naze to London Liverpool Street
Weekly 145, Monthly 556, Annual 5800, Anytime Return 57.30

Andrew1395 said:

Its true - I have now gone on to a four shirt week. Hoping to move to a three shirt week next year.

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Shirts are only for extra special occasions. Even then, it's usually a casual shirt if I end up wearing a shirt.

Bletchleyite said:

It could presumably work exactly the same way as a season does now - the cancellation fee would be based on turning it into what you've already used. So if you cancelled the contract after 3 months, you would have to pay the additional amount up to the cost of 3 regular monthlies.

As an alternative you could do what Council Tax does and basically give you "12 for the price of 10", i.e. after paying 10 payments you get 2 months of travel free. But that's a nuisance for monthly budgeting.

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The issue with early cancellations is that recovery of any underpayment on cancellation can be a challenge. Better to have 12/10 with the discount coming at the end, once the ticket has been "paid for". You would get a standard season ticket refund before then, based on monthly and weekly tickets for the time used.

Your monthly budget should be OK for this period.... Some people may like to divert the final two months as savings.

Bletchleyite said:

As an alternative you could do what Council Tax does and basically give you "12 for the price of 10", i.e. after paying 10 payments you get 2 months of travel free. But that's a nuisance for monthly budgeting.

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Erm, that's not what Council Tax does. Council tax is billed annually, and when paying by installments the installment value is worked out by dividing the annual bill by the number of installments. My council offers the option of paying in 10 installments or 12 (or all at once if you feel like of course), and the total amount paid is the same either way. There's nothing given for free.

sprunt said:

Erm, that's not what Council Tax does. Council tax is billed annually, and when paying by installments the installment value is worked out by dividing the annual bill by the number of installments. My council offers the option of paying in 10 installments or 12 (or all at once if you feel like of course), and the total amount paid is the same either way. There's nothing given for free.

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My Council only offers "in full" or 10 instalments (no payment Jan or Feb), it does not offer 12. In a practical sense it's the same even if in a technical sense it is not.

Bletchleyite said:

As an alternative you could do what Council Tax does and basically give you "12 for the price of 10", i.e. after paying 10 payments you get 2 months of travel free. But that's a nuisance for monthly budgeting.

Click to expand...

sprunt said:

Erm, that's not what Council Tax does. Council tax is billed annually, and when paying by installments the installment value is worked out by dividing the annual bill by the number of installments. My council offers the option of paying in 10 installments or 12 (or all at once if you feel like of course), and the total amount paid is the same either way. There's nothing given for free.

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Bletchleyite said:

My Council only offers "in full" or 10 instalments (no payment Jan or Feb), it does not offer 12. In a practical sense it's the same even if in a technical sense it is not.

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And here we have another excellent example of the "comparisons with other stuff" not really being good. I can see where both of you are coming from, but it's the reading too much into the situation that causes the issue.

This site https://www.commuterclub.co.uk/ would actually have been the perfect example. They buy the annual ticket, charge you for 11 monthly installments at the monthly rate (at time of purchase) with the difference (about 2 weeks) being their profit.

Starmill said:

How does the 1733 load on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday?

It probably doesn't carry terribly many long-distance passengers at those prices, so there's going to be lots of room for commuters.

I've used the 1600 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly a couple of times on weeknights other than Friday recently from its first call, Stoke-on-Trent, and it has been less than half full on every occasion. Admittedly this is probably a much more severe example of price gouging than GWR.

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The 17:33 is overtaken at Exeter by the 18:03 which may make the 18:03 more attractive to passengers for Newton Abbot especially as the 17:33 is effectively then all stations to Paignton.

kristiang85 said:

Absolutely agree there; it would certainly move the burden off many companies giving loans out at the beginning of the year to their staff.

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Large firms are almost certainly not going to be particularly bothered about the loans they're offering their staff for season tickets, because the amounts aren't significant compared to the salaries some of these staff are on and the borrowing capacity of the firm in the first place. Admittedly the loans being interest free means they might be losing a little bit of investment potential there, but at the same time because they're collecting the repayments from people's salary they're almost 100% certain to get all of their money back. Even if the employee who took the loan dies, the company probably has a life assurance scheme from which the outstanding balance of the loan can be recovered.

However, for small and medium sized firms, or people in the public or tertiary sectors, you're quite right that the loans could be a bit of a burden. Equally, they might already be so much of a burden that a lot of these employees won't be able to get a season ticket loan..

More broadly, a question over whether or not we should ask employees or employers to cover these sorts of bills in principle is absolutely worth asking.

Bletchleyite said:

My Council only offers "in full" or 10 instalments (no payment Jan or Feb), it does not offer 12. In a practical sense it's the same even if in a technical sense it is not.

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Really? It's Feb and March in most places. I pay council tax on two properties and they are both paid in the 10 months April to January. I assumed it's because the councils have to decide on the new levels ready for April, so have two months to do it without having to worry about collection.

Sorry, it is indeed Feb and March.