WMC SUMMONS- I bought a ticket.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

So I’ve just received a summons for Willesden Magistrate’s Court for an ‘alleged’ offence that took place on 16th June.
I was travelling on the train from London to Braintree Freeport my home town. Had bought a valid ticket and lost it on the journey.
I was given a fine tried to argue it with the TI and show him my bank statement proving I’d bought a ticket but there was no WIFI between stations so he said because you’re not travelling with a valid ticket I have to fine you but you can appeal the fine as you have ‘proof’.
Appealed the fine and was rejected.
What advice would you give as I’m a student and I work in a healthcare setting and cannot have a criminal record. Is there any way out of this without going to court?

Please advise.

RailUK Forums

WesternLancer · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
So I’ve just received a summons for Willesden Magistrate’s Court for an ‘alleged’ offence that took place on 16th June.
I was travelling on the train from London to Braintree Freeport my home town. Had bought a valid ticket and lost it on the journey.
I was given a fine tried to argue it with the TI and show him my bank statement proving I’d bought a ticket but there was no WIFI between stations so he said because you’re not travelling with a valid ticket I have to fine you but you can appeal the fine as you have ‘proof’.
Appealed the fine and was rejected.
What advice would you give as I’m a student and I work in a healthcare setting and cannot have a criminal record. Is there any way out of this without going to court?

Please advise.

when you say you Appealed do you mean that when you were 1st contacted by prosecutions team / contractor and asked to explain your side of the story you set out what happened as in had a ticket, lost it, here is proof of that, had no intention to defraud the railway and no intention to travel without a ticket?

Obv staff will no doubt hear the 'I've lost my ticket' excuse regularly so expect the on baord staff member will issue the standard paperwork expecting it to get sorted later on by other team if what the passenger says is true etc.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

I appealed online and explained my side. Sent a screen shot of my bank statement which shows a purchase for Abellio greater anglia. The fine was to by issued by Greater Anglia ticket inspector but is collected by IRCAS. They gave me a case number I appealed and they still rejected my appeal and insisted on payment.

Chew Chew · 20 Nov 2019

What have you done since they rejected your appeal in regards to this?

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

I haven’t done anything since then.

Chew Chew · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
I haven’t done anything since then.

Your inaction has, unfortunately, caused the position you now find yourself in.

With the best will in the world your bank statement doesn't prove that you had a valid ticket to be on that train. To take it to the extreme you could have given the ticket to someone else to use.

There are others on here with far greater knowledge on the matter than I have but the best your probably going to get now is an OOC settlement which will be far more expensive than paying up after your appeal was turned down.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

How do I start the process for an out of court settlement?

Thanks for being frank. But if my bank statement doesn’t count as proof of a ticket purchase? What does?

The way the ticket inspector explained it to me made me feel as though my bank statement would be enough proof. If I’d known there was literally no hope I would have literally paid the £20.50 there and then.

Does anyone have any advice for how to go about settling out of court?

James H · 20 Nov 2019

The legal position isn't that you have to buy a ticket. It is that you must be able to show a valid ticket when requested by staff. Therefore by losing your ticket, you are automatically on the wrong side of the law. Simple as that.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

Fab.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Anyone know how I go about an out of court settlement?

WesternLancer · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
How do I start the process for an out of court settlement?

Thanks for being frank. But if my bank statement doesn’t count as proof of a ticket purchase? What does?

The way the ticket inspector explained it to me made me feel as though my bank statement would be enough proof. If I’d known there was literally no hope I would have literally paid the £20.50 there and then.

Does anyone have any advice for how to go about settling out of court?

It's proof you had a ticket, but what is to say you could not have used said ticket on another train, given it to someone else etc etc.

The law basically says you must have a ticket in your possession to show on the train you are on.

You have suffered a harsh interpretation and been given no 'benefit of the doubt', but the only option now is to get into further dialogue with them (or take the chance the court will see your side of the story, which is a risk).

Haywain · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
Anyone know how I go about an out of court settlement?

You need to urgently contact the GA prosecutions team - there is an email address on the document you attached - and request a settlement. There are suggestions of suitable wording on post 23 of this linked thread, which should assist. I'm no expert on processes of the Single Justice Procedure, but I suspect entering a not guilty plea will mean it goes to a court hearing which will give a bit more time - I expect someone with better knowledge will be able to advise. But whatever you do, don't hang about.

30907 · 20 Nov 2019

Post #23 on this current thread sets it out well:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wmt-magistrates-summons-out-of-court.195188/

1. Express a sincere apology to the company and their staff for your actions, do not attempt to divert attention to say they were in some way to blame. Recognise that your failure to pay your fare before travelling is wrong.
2. Recognise that fare evasion is a serious matter costing the rail industry huge sums annually
3. If this is the first time that you have been spoken to by a rail company about a ticketing issue, say so and ask if the matter might be resolved by an administrative disposal rather than prosecution
4. Offer to pay the fare due and all of the company's reasonably incurred costs in dealing with this matter
5. If you have no past history of any similar matters, say so and give a written undertaking not to travel without a valid ticket in future.
6. Explain that you realise your actions were unacceptable and 'out of character'. Say that you now worry that a conviction will result in a loss of your good name and could badly affect your future employment.

I am personally not sure about the very last sentence.
Just to set your mind at rest, an offence against the Railway Byelaws is not a " recordable offence"; even if for some reason it creates a criminal record (I don't think this forum is quite certain on this), it will be spent after a year. And it is not the sort of offence that any employer will be concerned about if it shows up on an enhanced DBS.

On a small point: £20.50 seems a small amount for a Penalty Fare for London to Braintree, which I would expect to be about £50 (twice the single fare) - have you misremembered the amount?

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

It is a small amount you’re right. The way it was explained to me by the ticket inspector was that I could simple appeal and it would be fine.
If I’d known that the system was rigged I would have paid it there and then. I was also probably in a hurry as it was the last day of my hospital placement and just wanted to get home.

packermac · 20 Nov 2019

30907 said:
Post #23 on this current thread sets it out well:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wmt-magistrates-summons-out-of-court.195188/

I am personally not sure about the very last sentence.
Just to set your mind at rest, an offence against the Railway Byelaws is not a " recordable offence"; even if for some reason it creates a criminal record (I don't think this forum is quite certain on this), it will be spent after a year. And it is not the sort of offence that any employer will be concerned about if it shows up on an enhanced DBS.

I am not sure you could guarantee that it would be ignored by an employer. I am sure there are companies or roles with companies that would disqualify you in a recruitment process for this. The government website links from this site may provide some comfort.
https://www.ucheck.co.uk/does-a-criminal-record-stop-you-getting-a-job/
Not a Guardian fan but this is 4 years old and shows little has changed in the meantime.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2015/feb/07/rail-fares-guilty-innocent-train-companies

WesternLancer · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
It is a small amount you’re right. The way it was explained to me by the ticket inspector was that I could simple appeal and it would be fine.
If I’d known that the system was rigged I would have paid it there and then. I was also probably in a hurry as it was the last day of my hospital placement and just wanted to get home.

I would not add anything significant to the above advice beyond saying it may be worth copying what you write to the court as well.

Whilst as Haywain says use the e-mail for speed, but then I would print the e-mail you send out, write a short covering letter (here is a copy of the e-mail I have sent you etc)
(and maybe also send a copy of all that to the court (not just a CC, but again with a short covering letter 'here is a copy of a letter I have sent to X re this matter')**
** - note below post from Puffing Devil suggesting not doing this re the court, which I would defer to

post Royal Mail signed for / recorded delivery / registered post - or whatever it is called these days, keep the receipts and track the delivery.

Assuming you may have got on the train without realising you had lost your ticket (as opposed to thinking 'I've lost my ticket but I can always just show the receipt on my phone', ie you fully believed you had a ticket with you when you boarded the train) it may be worth stating that if it is true.

Good luck with this.

some bloke · 20 Nov 2019

Afope, when you say you lost the ticket on the journey, do you mean you had it when you got on the train?

People have said above that you need to have a ticket in your possession and show it if asked. But this allegation is different. It is that you committed an offence at Stratford by entering a train in order to travel, without a valid ticket. If you did have the ticket then, you are not guilty of the offence. We might think that a bank statement together with your word is enough to provide reasonable doubt. In any case, it may be a good idea to bear in mind the precise allegation when responding to the company.

It may be useful to note in relation to employer's attitudes that the offence, despite how it might be read, is not one of dishonesty (intent to avoid a fare).

Another point: You may like to make sure your name and address are invisible on the attachment.

Puffing Devil · 20 Nov 2019

The good news is that you have 20 days to work with Greater Anglia to come to an out of court resolution. Also, this is a bylaw matter which has a minor impact on your criminal record.

If you cannot reach a settlement with the train company, you have nothing to lose by opting for a court appearance, rather than being dealt with by the single justice procedure. You can plead guilty and opt for a court hearing. This will give you two additional chances:

You can meet with the prosecutor on the day of the hearing and plead your case again for an out of court settlement.
If you do end up in court, you can speak directly to the magistrates about your lost ticket and ask them to consider an Absolute Discharge - this means that you admit your guilt, but receive no punishment*. It does sit on your record, though is immediately spent. That means it will not show on a standard DBS check.

*You may still have to pay prosecution costs, which may be around £100.

WesternLancer said:
I would not add anything significant to the above advice beyond saying it may be worth copying what you write to the court as well.

There is nothing to be gained by including the court in any correspondence with GA. If you do end up speaking to the magistrates, you may want to outline what you did to avoid coming to court. Do not be scared of the court - magistrates are normal people who generally appreciate a remorseful defendant who takes the time to turn up and speak to the court. You do not need a solicitor.

Islineclear3_1 · 20 Nov 2019

The "system" does seem very unfair - i.e. you bought a ticket and paid for it but the "system" works in a very black and white fashion

You didn't have a ticket at the time of inspection. Whether you paid or not makes no difference in the eyes of the railway

And as you now know, you passed up an opportunity to pay a penalty fare (I assume this is what you mean by a fine) and the matter has now escalated and you are liable to pay a higher sum of money

Try and speak to the prosecutor on the day before the hearing and agree a settlement. Do not get shirty and argue the toss as this will not go in your favour

If you are successful, this matter will go away and there will be no record. Then chalk this up to experience and don't lose your ticket again

WesternLancer · 20 Nov 2019

Puffing Devil said:
There is nothing to be gained by including the court in any correspondence with GA. If you do end up speaking to the magistrates, you may want to outline what you did to avoid coming to court. Do not be scared of the court - magistrates are normal people who generally appreciate a remorseful defendant who takes the time to turn up and speak to the court. You do not need a solicitor.

Thanks Puffing Devil for adding to my point to clarify this. I am sure this is helpful to the OP. I will edit my post accordingly.

ukkid · 20 Nov 2019

Did the OP appeal a penaly fare notice to which the TOC responded to (rejecting)?

If so does that not mean they are statute barred from prosecuting criminally? Instead they would have to pursue the penalty fare civily if it went unpaid.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

Yes I had it on me when I caught the train. And when I was asked to show it to the inspector discovered I had lost it.

some bloke said:
Afope, when you say you lost the ticket on the journey, do you mean you had it when you got on the train?

People have said above that you need to have a ticket in your possession and show it if asked. But this allegation is different. It is that you committed an offence at Stratford by entering a train in order to travel, without a valid ticket. If you did have the ticket then, you are not guilty of the offence. We might think that a bank statement together with your word is enough to provide reasonable doubt. In any case, it may be a good idea to bear in mind the precise allegation when responding to the company.

It may be useful to note in relation to employer's attitudes that the offence, despite how it might be read, is not one of dishonesty (intent to avoid a fare).

Another point: You may like to make sure your name and address are invisible on the attachment.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

robert7111a said:
The "system" does seem very unfair - i.e. you bought a ticket and paid for it but the "system" works in a very black and white fashion

You didn't have a ticket at the time of inspection. Whether you paid or not makes no difference in the eyes of the railway

And as you now know, you passed up an opportunity to pay a penalty fare (I assume this is what you mean by a fine) and the matter has now escalated and you are liable to pay a higher sum of money

Try and speak to the prosecutor on the day before the hearing and agree a settlement. Do not get shirty and argue the toss as this will not go in your favour

If you are successful, this matter will go away and there will be no record. Then chalk this up to experience and don't lose your ticket again

??? Speak to the prosecutor on the day?
I'm a student in full time education studying a degree that I cannot afford to have a criminal record or. I have absolutely no knowledge of the court system so I'd rather not risk it. Which is why I'm asking is there anyway I can agree an out of court settlement?
Hindisght is 20/20 and I've missed the deadline to pay the fare. What I'm asking for is advice on what I can do right now.

Puffing Devil · 20 Nov 2019

ukkid said:
Did the OP appeal a penaly fare notice to which the TOC responded to (rejecting)?

If so does that not mean they are statute barred from prosecuting criminally? Instead they would have to pursue the penalty fare civily if it went unpaid.

Superb spot. The majority of my experience is in the court process, I often forget this.

Before advising we need to be sure that it was a penalty fare that was issued, not an unpaid fare notice. @Afope. - Please post any scans or photos that you can of the "fine" that you received and the correspondence that you had concerning your appeal. Please ensure that your name, address and any references are scrubbed out.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

This is the response I got my appeal.

SickyNicky · 20 Nov 2019

What were the dates of your appeal and of the appeal rejection letter please? We're looking to see if it predates the summons (amongst other things).

Puffing Devil · 20 Nov 2019

Afope. said:
This is the response I got my appeal.

Please delete your last post - it has your name and reference show.

It is a valid rejection of a Penalty Fare. If this is the only one you have, we need to check the dates as Sicky Nicky has said, then advise further.

Afope. · 20 Nov 2019

It does predate the summons.
Summons was Monday 18th November.
Appeal was rejected 24th July.

SickyNicky · 20 Nov 2019

My reading is that section 11 (3) (a) of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made) may indeed doom any prosecution to failure. Someone more knowledgeable than I will be along to confirm or otherwise soon, I'm sure.

some bloke · 20 Nov 2019

You could quote the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 to them:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

Afope. said:
Yes I had it on me when I caught the train. And when I was asked to show it to the inspector discovered I had lost it.

Then it seems they're accusing you of the wrong offence - you aren't guilty under 18.1 but under 18.2.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws

[Edit: Removed the part about a possibility that the company could be able to prosecute. They can't.]

Puffing Devil · 20 Nov 2019

some bloke said:
You could quote the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 to them:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

View attachment 70629

However, the offence they've now alleged (which you're innocent of) is of entering the train without a valid ticket, not exactly "the same failure to produce". Someone more experienced may be able to say whether this matters or not.

Then it seems they're accusing you of the wrong offence - you aren't guilty under 18.1 but under 18.2.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws

As the OP did not have a ticket, 18.1 is valid charge. They admitted to losing a ticket, therefore they did not possess one. It matters not, though as the prosecution cannot be brought.

WMC SUMMONS- I bought a ticket.

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