Question about Class 55 locomotive "Deltic"

Cowley · 16 Nov 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
They were from the East Coast, displaced by the 91s.

After the 45/1s finished on these services (early 1987 maybe?) what provided the traction between then and the HSTs that were displaced by the 91s arriving?

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47271 · 16 Nov 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
They were from the East Coast, displaced by the 91s.

I don't doubt that HSTs were displaced from the East Coast by electrification, but they were running on the Midland well before then, and certainly by 1984. There must've been an earlier shuffle as well?

Sorry, we're right off topic!

jimm · 16 Nov 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
They were from the East Coast, displaced by the 91s.

Not true. The Midland Main Line HST services started in 1983. The sets came from the Western Region, XC and East Coast

See https://www.125group.org.uk/past-operators/history/ under Sectorisation for more detail.

The 10 HSTs were supplemented by local-hauled services worked by 45s and 47s until the ECML electrification released additional sets in the late 1980s.

Shaw S Hunter · 16 Nov 2019

47271 said:
I don't doubt that HSTs were displaced from the East Coast by electrification, but they were running on the Midland well before then, and certainly by 1984. There must've been an earlier shuffle as well?

Sorry, we're right off topic!

Try this: https://www.125group.org.uk/past-operators/history/

@jimm beat me to it!

randyrippley · 16 Nov 2019

47271 said:
I don't doubt that HSTs were displaced from the East Coast by electrification, but they were running on the Midland well before then, and certainly by 1984. There must've been an earlier shuffle as well?

Sorry, we're right off topic!

Some moved from the WR: for instance Paddington-Torbay services reverted to class 50 haulage to free them up

70014IronDuke · 16 Nov 2019

jimm said:
Not true. The Midland Main Line HST services started in 1983. The sets came from the Western Region, XC and East Coast

See https://www.125group.org.uk/past-operators/history/ under Sectorisation for more detail.

The 10 HSTs were supplemented by local-hauled services worked by 45s and 47s until the ECML electrification released additional sets in the late 1980s.

AIRI, the Midland first had HSTs in autumn 1982. Usually, they were used on the Sheffield fasts, with Cl 45/1s on semi-fasts leaving St Pancras 10 mins after the HSTs.

GrimShady · 19 Nov 2019

I wonder how they would have managed if they had been used in place of the 47/7s on E&G.

The fleet size, RA, and Max Speed would all have been perfectly suitable. ETH may have been an issue however.

delt1c · 19 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
I wonder how they would have managed if they had been used in place of the 47/7s on E&G.

The fleet size, RA, and Max Speed would all have been perfectly suitable. ETH may have been an issue however.

Dont think the drivers would have been to happy with them, they would have really struggled on the Cowlairs incline, the noise would have been deafening

GrimShady · 19 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
Dont think the drivers would have been to happy with them, they would have really struggled on the Cowlairs incline, the noise would have been deafening

Struggled you reckon? The 37/0s used to handle load 7 plus an ETHEL up Cowlairs without too much of an issue.

delt1c · 19 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
Struggled you reckon? The 37/0s used to handle load 7 plus an ETHEL up Cowlairs without too much of an issue.

The 37 is a sure footed loco, the Deltics were racehorses, leaving Kings Cross they had to be treated very carefully and were prone to violent wheelslip if not handled carefully. The 37's were also banked out of Queen St

GrimShady · 19 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
The 37 is a sure footed loco, the Deltics were racehorses, leaving Kings Cross they had to be treated very carefully and were prone to violent wheelslip if not handled carefully. The 37's were also banked out of Queen St

I wasn't aware the 55s had issues with wheels slip.

I don't ever remember seeing any 37 WHL trains banked out of QS.

delt1c · 19 Nov 2019

They were geared as express passenger locos., not low down pulling power. The 37 was designed as mixed traffic loco and had good low speed adhesion. The loco that brought the empty stock into Queen St was used to bank the train up the incline. Then once at the top would drop back and await its next ECS duty

hexagon789 · 19 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
I wonder how they would have managed if they had been used in place of the 47/7s on E&G.

The fleet size, RA, and Max Speed would all have been perfectly suitable. ETH may have been an issue however.

They were used with Mk3 Push-pull sets on summer workings to Oban for a period and did a stint on Edinburgh-Aberdeen internal services. They regularly beat the schedules on the latter workings - was a mention in an article about it somewhere, trouble is too many articles in too many places!

Kingspanner · 19 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
They were geared as express passenger locos., not low down pulling power. The 37 was designed as mixed traffic loco and had good low speed adhesion. The loco that brought the empty stock into Queen St was used to bank the train up the incline. Then once at the top would drop back and await its next ECS duty

Deltics were notoriously poor starters especially in the wet because of "only" 100 tons adhesion weight (so at a disadvantage versus a Class 47) aggravated by coarse control of engjne power. However, once the throttle was wide open above about 20mph they pulled harder than any other diesel loco and would run like the wind even with big loads. In 1980 they were booked on a weekday diagram Edinburgh-Plymouth as far as York and return which was 12 coaches/420tons plus ETH to deliver. They frequently ran late, especially the return. I was 15 and used to bash the Newcastle-Durham stretch from a droplight as close as possible to the front. Up to Durham (about noon ex Newcastle) was literally up, adverse gradients all the way giving 13 mins plus at continuous full power and full NOISE. The downhill running towards Newcastle was usually a riot, terminating in ferocious braking at Bensham.
If any of the survivors run a mainline railtour that you can afford I urge you to give it a try.

GrimShady · 19 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
They were used with Mk3 Push-pull sets on summer workings to Oban for a period and did a stint on Edinburgh-Aberdeen internal services. They regularly beat the schedules on the latter workings - was a mention in an article about it somewhere, trouble is too many articles in too many places!

I do remember that although was the duty also shared with 37s plus spare ETHELs and only on Saturdays I think?

GrimShady · 19 Nov 2019

Just found this on YouTube. This must have been load 8 plus trailing loco.

delt1c · 19 Nov 2019

Moving slightly of topic , what was the best loco for departing Queen St straight onto the Cowlairs incline. My money would be on a peak , which did operate from Queen St in the 60’s

Cowley · 19 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
Moving slightly of topic , what was the best loco for departing Queen St straight onto the Cowlairs incline. My money would be on a peak , which did operate from Queen St in the 60’s

Only ever been out of there behind 47s and 37s. The 37 did an enormous amount of wheel slipping (on the Sleepers)!
The 47s seemed pretty sure footed, but I didn’t get a chance to go up there behind a type 2 ever, and they must have been quite good I’d have thought (depending on the train size of course)?

Cowley · 19 Nov 2019

Kingspanner said:
Deltics were notoriously poor starters especially in the wet because of "only" 100 tons adhesion weight (so at a disadvantage versus a Class 47) aggravated by coarse control of engjne power. However, once the throttle was wide open above about 20mph they pulled harder than any other diesel loco and would run like the wind even with big loads. In 1980 they were booked on a weekday diagram Edinburgh-Plymouth as far as York and return which was 12 coaches/420tons plus ETH to deliver. They frequently ran late, especially the return. I was 15 and used to bash the Newcastle-Durham stretch from a droplight as close as possible to the front. Up to Durham (about noon ex Newcastle) was literally up, adverse gradients all the way giving 13 mins plus at continuous full power and full NOISE. The downhill running towards Newcastle was usually a riot, terminating in ferocious braking at Bensham.
If any of the survivors run a mainline railtour that you can afford I urge you to give it a try.

Lovely stuff Kingspanner.

hexagon789 · 19 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
I do remember that although was the duty also shared with 37s plus spare ETHELs and only on Saturdays I think?

Not sure, I've only seen photos of Deltics on the summer workings (were they Saturday or Sunday?) using spare Mk3 push-pull sets.

randyrippley · 19 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
The 37 is a sure footed loco, the Deltics were racehorses, leaving Kings Cross they had to be treated very carefully and were prone to violent wheelslip if not handled carefully. The 37's were also banked out of Queen St

Same bogie and wheelsets though different gearing

Shaw S Hunter · 20 Nov 2019

hexagon789 said:
Not sure, I've only seen photos of Deltics on the summer workings (were they Saturday or Sunday?) using spare Mk3 push-pull sets.

These fabled workings from Edinburgh to Oban and back in fact ran on just two occasions, Sundays 2nd and 23rd August 1981, with the title "Festival Express". Although by this time farewell railtours had started to be organised these trains were never advertised for Deltic haulage as the decision to use a Deltic was only taken on 30th July! As such they didn't receive much enthusiast attention though the second trip did better in that respect than the first. The train was made up of a strengthened Mk3 push-pull set which included a Mk1 buffet and was worked on both days very aptly by 55021, "Argyll and Sutherland Highlander". No 37s or ETHELs had anything to do with these workings.

GrimShady · 20 Nov 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
These fabled workings from Edinburgh to Oban and back in fact ran on just two occasions, Sundays 2nd and 23rd August 1981, with the title "Festival Express". Although by this time farewell railtours had started to be organised these trains were never advertised for Deltic haulage as the decision to use a Deltic was only taken on 30th July! As such they didn't receive much enthusiast attention though the second trip did better in that respect than the first. The train was made up of a strengthened Mk3 push-pull set which included a Mk1 buffet and was worked on both days very aptly by 55021, "Argyll and Sutherland Highlander". No 37s or ETHELs had anything to do with these workings.

According to "British Rail at Work: ScotRail" They were used on a special working on the Kyle line followed by the summer Edinburgh- Oban Sunday excursions of 1983.

d9009alycidon · 20 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
Moving slightly of topic , what was the best loco for departing Queen St straight onto the Cowlairs incline. My money would be on a peak , which did operate from Queen St in the 60’s

Are you sure? There were Peaks deployed on internal Scottish workings to Inverness in the early 1960s, but all the photographs I have seen of these were at Buchanan Street. I cannot recall ever seeing one or a photograph of a peak at Queen Street

EDIT - I stand corrected, a quick look through the derbysulzers.com website reports that Peaks were regularly rostered for the "North Briton" during 1964 (still never seen a photo!!)

GrimShady · 20 Nov 2019

d9009alycidon said:
Are you sure? There were Peaks deployed on internal Scottish workings to Inverness in the early 1960s, but all the photographs I have seen of these were at Buchanan Street. I cannot recall ever seeing one or a photograph of a peak at Queen Street

I'm convinced I've seen a picture of Class 45 in QS at Platform 5.

There this entry on DerbySulzers.com

"A rather unusual working was that of D15 in charge of the 6.15pm Edinburgh Waverley - Glasgow Queen St passenger on August 6th 1963, presumably borrowed off an inbound Waverley route working."

Theres even mention made of workings to Weymss Bay.

hexagon789 · 20 Nov 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
These fabled workings from Edinburgh to Oban and back in fact ran on just two occasions, Sundays 2nd and 23rd August 1981, with the title "Festival Express". Although by this time farewell railtours had started to be organised these trains were never advertised for Deltic haulage as the decision to use a Deltic was only taken on 30th July! As such they didn't receive much enthusiast attention though the second trip did better in that respect than the first. The train was made up of a strengthened Mk3 push-pull set which included a Mk1 buffet and was worked on both days very aptly by 55021, "Argyll and Sutherland Highlander". No 37s or ETHELs had anything to do with these workings.

There were later workings to Oban with 37s and shortened Mk3 rakes.

According to the RAIL Express Modeller article the 55 tours were August 1981, the first formed of a standard Mk3 rake with a Mk1 RBR placed amidships, the second tour had that swapped for an RMB and an extra TSO added.

The 37 workings to Oban continued apparentl into the later 1980s, an Edinburgh-Oban in August 1987 being formed of 37411 Institution of Railway Signal Engineers hauling 4 Mk3 TSO and a DBSO.

matchmaker · 20 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
I wasn't aware the 55s had issues with wheels slip.

I don't ever remember seeing any 37 WHL trains banked out of QS.

Maximum unassisted load for a 37 up Cowlairs was 340 tons. Maximum for a 40 was 350 tons but they were a tad heavier than a 37!

delt1c · 20 Nov 2019

Cowley said:
Only ever been out of there behind 47s and 37s. The 37 did an enormous amount of wheel slipping (on the Sleepers)!
The 47s seemed pretty sure footed, but I didn’t get a chance to go up there behind a type 2 ever, and they must have been quite good I’d have thought (depending on the train size of course)?

Was interesting especially on the 06.00 to Fort William which included a sleeper car and a Restuarant Car so was a very heavy train with a single 27 and usually banked by a 27. After the top of Cowlairs the sole 27 was left to struggle north on its own.

Shaw S Hunter · 20 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
According to "British Rail at Work: ScotRail" They were used on a special working on the Kyle line followed by the summer Edinburgh- Oban Sunday excursions of 1983.

A further check of the records has reminded me that the ETHELs were not converted until mid to late 1983 so could never have worked with Deltics in any case! And the workings with Mk3 push-pull sets away from the core routes were never on a regular basis but occasional excursions only. The information on the Six Bells Junction site suggests the timing of these was decidedly sporadic.

Cowley · 20 Nov 2019

delt1c said:
Was interesting especially on the 06.00 to Fort William which included a sleeper car and a Restuarant Car so was a very heavy train with a single 27 and usually banked by a 27. After the top of Cowlairs the sole 27 was left to struggle north on its own.

Just wish I’d experienced it. Mind you class 33s from a standing start up the 1 in 37 from Exeter st David’s wasn’t a bad substitute. I do love a Sulzer type 2 though.

Question about Class 55 locomotive "Deltic"

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