First West Yorkshire & York discussion

Andyh82 · 17 Nov 2019

There are more frequency cuts lined up for the December service change

Leeds 40 & Halifax 576 both reduces from every 10 to every 12 mins

Halifax 590/592 reduces from every 10 (currently every 12 due to long term flood prevention roadworks in Mytholmroyd) to every 15 mins

Bradford 611 withdrawn meaning the combined 611/X11 goes from every 15 mins to every 30 mins

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Leeds1970 · 17 Nov 2019

Andyh82 said:
That is why, I am wary of when people look forward to the possibility of WY Metro giving up timetables next year handing it to the operators.

They point at how dull and boring Metro's timetables are, and point at the glossy publications Transdev do.

In reality, you could have Metro dropping timetables, handing it to the operators, and First and Arriva subsequently deciding not to bother.

WY Metro are not stopping printed time tables/handing it to operators - WY Metro will continue to print timetables however they will be in a different format- very basic and probably be in just black and white - after all they are intended to be functional rather than collectables additionally another reason Metro produces' 'dull & boring' timetables because only a tiny percentage of the cost comes from the operators, most of the cost is met by council tax subsidies . as an aside Leeds city (as first now likes to call itself) publicly stated if metro stopped producing timetables First would not provide alternatives nor would they or Arriva pay any more additional costs towards timetable printing.

Andyh82 · 17 Nov 2019

Leeds1970 said:
WY Metro are not stopping printed time tables/handing it to operators - WY Metro will continue to print timetables however they will be in a different format- very basic and probably be in just black and white - after all they are intended to be functional rather than collectables additionally another reason Metro produces' 'dull & boring' timetables because only a tiny percentage of the cost comes from the operators, most of the cost is met by council tax subsidies . as an aside Leeds city (as first now likes to call itself) publicly stated if metro stopped producing timetables First would not provide alternatives nor would they or Arriva pay any more additional costs towards timetable printing.

Yes the results of the review are now known, my post was made ages ago when various options were on the table.

tbtc · 17 Nov 2019

Andyh82 said:
There are more frequency cuts lined up for the December service change

Leeds 40 & Halifax 576 both reduces from every 10 to every 12 mins

So the stopping* service along York Road will be the 19/19a (every fifteen minutes or so, though not quite a clock face timetable), the 40 (every twelve minutes) and the 56 (every ten minutes)... which means around fifteen buses per hour but with potentially gaps of ten minutes at some times of the hour... genius - well done First!

(* - the X26/X27 are limited stop and the 64 not too frequent, so I'm not including them)

Andyh82 · 17 Nov 2019

I doubt anyone coordinates them together anyway as they all serve different bus stops and different routes in the city centre. You’ll either go specifically for one, or turn up and go with 15 buses an hour.

Andyh82 · 18 Nov 2019

Services 342, 356 & 358 are being reduced to hourly

Service 549 will be reduced to hourly between Nunnery Lane and Huddersfield

Service 185 is being reduced to every 30 minutes

Service 589 will be withdrawn between Todmorden and Burnley

Service 521 reduced to every 12 minutes

Service 576 reduced to every 12 minutes

Service 611 withdrawn

Service 590/592 reduced to every 15 minutes

1D53 · 18 Nov 2019

tbtc said:
So the stopping* service along York Road will be the 19/19a (every fifteen minutes or so, though not quite a clock face timetable), the 40 (every twelve minutes) and the 56 (every ten minutes)... which means around fifteen buses per hour but with potentially gaps of ten minutes at some times of the hour... genius - well done First!

(* - the X26/X27 are limited stop and the 64 not too frequent, so I'm not including them)

Plus the 5 for the most part. Plenty of other Operators running plenty of buses too, 7, 163, 166, 403, Coastliner, albeit limited stop. No shortage of buses!

Leeds1970 · 18 Nov 2019

don't be surprised if a lot more of 'Leeds City ' routes are knocked down from 10 min frequency to 12/15 or 20 mins next year as apart from some core routes (1/6/28/42/56) outside of the two peaks supply is far greater than demand - even the once busy Dewsbury road services are increasingly rattling round either empty or with just ENCS passengers. it is well recognised that outside of the TFL area bus usage is falling by aprox 10% year on year as more people work and shop from home.
for people that still require buses as a mode of transport for work or leisure builders/operators don't exactly offer an enticing product - taking Leeds City (first) as an example the fares a pretty steep, the service poor to abysmal and the vehicles mediocre to dam right disgusting.

bluenoxid · 19 Nov 2019

Leeds1970 said:
don't be surprised if a lot more of 'Leeds City ' routes are knocked down from 10 min frequency to 12/15 or 20 mins next year as apart from some core routes (1/6/28/42/56) outside of the two peaks supply is far greater than demand - even the once busy Dewsbury road services are increasingly rattling round either empty or with just ENCS passengers. it is well recognised that outside of the TFL area bus usage is falling by aprox 10% year on year as more people work and shop from home.
for people that still require buses as a mode of transport for work or leisure builders/operators don't exactly offer an enticing product - taking Leeds City (first) as an example the fares a pretty steep, the service poor to abysmal and the vehicles mediocre to dam right disgusting.

It depends on the corridors. The big challenge for the operators in Leeds is the substantial variation in conditions, which is making their operations incredibly difficult. There are areas where numbers are improving but the current route changes are making things difficult.

The challenge that I have with every change is that something is moved or cut, which just makes taking the bus more challenging.

Whisky Papa · 19 Nov 2019

Andyh82 said:
Service 589 will be withdrawn between Todmorden and Burnley

Service 590/592 reduced to every 15 minutes

Wow. That is a major cut for Todmorden, particularly the reduction of the Burnley route from a combined 589/592 every 30 mins to hourly 592 during the daytime. Even if the through service to Burnley is not justified, the three mile stretch from Todmorden up to Portsmouth at the West Yorkshire border is almost continually built-up, it's a shame the 589 could not have been kept at least to there.

It wouldn't be so bad if the 592s coming through from Halifax were anything like reliable, but with the ongoing flood works in Mytholmroyd they have not been. The drop to every 15 mins on the Halifax side is perhaps not such a big issue in my view, every 10 was probably alway a bit of overkill.

Seehof · 20 Nov 2019

First York:
Does anybody know, please, why at least one electric bus and one bendy bus have been painted into a dark blue livery?
Thank you

Andyh82 · 20 Nov 2019

Seehof said:
First York:
Does anybody know, please, why at least one electric bus and one bendy bus have been painted into a dark blue livery?
Thank you

It’s the base for the new livery

Seehof · 20 Nov 2019

Thank you.
What is the new livery?
Is this just for York?
Thanks again

Seehof · 20 Nov 2019

Thank you.
What is the new livery?
Is this just for York?
Thanks again

NorthernSpirit · 21 Nov 2019

Whisky Papa said:
Wow. That is a major cut for Todmorden, particularly the reduction of the Burnley route from a combined 589/592 every 30 mins to hourly 592 during the daytime. Even if the through service to Burnley is not justified, the three mile stretch from Todmorden up to Portsmouth at the West Yorkshire border is almost continually built-up, it's a shame the 589 could not have been kept at least to there.

I think one of the reasons why the 589 has been cut between Tod and Burnley would be down to the lack of any proper turning places north of Todmorden on the West Yorkshire side of the boundary, as the only place to turn around would be the layby between Portsmouth and Mereclough. Others could include lack of patronage as I've never seen a full bus along Burnley Road / A646 after 6pm.

One thing that does stand out is that why hasn't First scrapped the 592 and instead have all journeys between Halifax and Todmorden running as 590's and the Rochdale to Burnley stretch as 589's with a handful of peak hour "X89's" extending to both Burnley and Rochdale alternatively every 30 minutes to/ from Halifax.

Tempest3K · 21 Nov 2019

Wish they'd spend some money on the interiors or newer vehicles first...

Andyh82 · 21 Nov 2019

NorthernSpirit said:
I think one of the reasons why the 589 has been cut between Tod and Burnley would be down to the lack of any proper turning places north of Todmorden on the West Yorkshire side of the boundary, as the only place to turn around would be the layby between Portsmouth and Mereclough. Others could include lack of patronage as I've never seen a full bus along Burnley Road / A646 after 6pm.

One thing that does stand out is that why hasn't First scrapped the 592 and instead have all journeys between Halifax and Todmorden running as 590's and the Rochdale to Burnley stretch as 589's with a handful of peak hour "X89's" extending to both Burnley and Rochdale alternatively every 30 minutes to/ from Halifax.

Because people want to travel from Halifax to Burnley & Rochdale?

Buses at certain times do run the Portsmouth, such as the last bus, and presumably do use that lay-by to turn around.

Whisky Papa · 21 Nov 2019

Andyh82 said:
Because people want to travel from Halifax to Burnley & Rochdale?

Buses at certain times do run the Portsmouth, such as the last bus, and presumably do use that lay-by to turn around.

I spent 14 years reversing at Station Parade, but I suspect recent housing development means that is no longer an option, in which case it would have to be the layby before the Windy Bridge.

RELL6L · 22 Nov 2019

These West Yorkshire cuts are shocking and present First in a really poor light. Every 10 minutes is "turn up and go", anything less isn't and will drive people not to bother if they have a choice.

I don't know all the routes but the 590/592 from Halifax to Todmorden is a good example. A decent 10 minute service worked well, I've been on it a couple of times and it was busy. Then it was reduced to every 12 minutes - but nothing stays at that frequency for long - surprise surprise now every 15 minutes. On the Burnley leg (589/592) the cut from every 30 minutes to hourly is a shame but perhaps the rail service has made a difference here, especially as you can go through from Rochdale to Burnley by train now. Turning half the service at Portsmouth won't work at all - if you run one out from Todmorden to Portsmouth 30 minutes after the Burnley one then they will come back together. or vice versa. Not that First are averse to doing this..... Or perhaps they need to resources to compete needlessly in Rochdale.

The cuts on the 185 out from Huddersfield to Slaithwaite and Marsden are poor too, this corridor has gone from every 10 minutes to every 15 in no time. Yes there is the 184 too, but instead of being an integral part of a 10 minute combined frequency it is now very close to a 185 each way. So there are four buses to and from Marsden in one half hour and then a half hour gap when the 181 goes to Wilberlee (eg depart Marsden 03,21,51,54). I know the 184 may not be First's for long but how about some common sense!

One change not even mentioned is the 579 from Halifax to Sowerby Bridge. This used to be every 12 minutes, currently it is a straight, easily memorable clockface 15 minute schedule during the daytime - next best thing to "turn up and go". It looks like they might be trying to run it with 4 buses which probably doesn't give it enough recovery time as a 60 minute round trip looks tight - so I guess there is a reliability issue. At any decent frequency a round trip time of say 65 minutes doesn't work too well. So what are they doing? The new timetable from December is irregular, sort of 15-15-15-20 making four buses in 65 minutes, fitting with the round trip time. But not quite, there are more 20 minute gaps and it becomes less regular still in the mid afternoon - although peak hours stay at generally 12 minutes. How to drive passengers away!

NorthernSpirit · 23 Nov 2019

RELL6L said:
These West Yorkshire cuts are shocking and present First in a really poor light. Every 10 minutes is "turn up and go", anything less isn't and will drive people not to bother if they have a choice.

I don't know all the routes but the 590/592 from Halifax to Todmorden is a good example. A decent 10 minute service worked well, I've been on it a couple of times and it was busy. Then it was reduced to every 12 minutes - but nothing stays at that frequency for long - surprise surprise now every 15 minutes. On the Burnley leg (589/592) the cut from every 30 minutes to hourly is a shame but perhaps the rail service has made a difference here, especially as you can go through from Rochdale to Burnley by train now. Turning half the service at Portsmouth won't work at all - if you run one out from Todmorden to Portsmouth 30 minutes after the Burnley one then they will come back together. or vice versa. Not that First are averse to doing this..... Or perhaps they need to resources to compete needlessly in Rochdale.

The cuts on the 185 out from Huddersfield to Slaithwaite and Marsden are poor too, this corridor has gone from every 10 minutes to every 15 in no time. Yes there is the 184 too, but instead of being an integral part of a 10 minute combined frequency it is now very close to a 185 each way. So there are four buses to and from Marsden in one half hour and then a half hour gap when the 181 goes to Wilberlee (eg depart Marsden 03,21,51,54). I know the 184 may not be First's for long but how about some common sense!

One change not even mentioned is the 579 from Halifax to Sowerby Bridge. This used to be every 12 minutes, currently it is a straight, easily memorable clockface 15 minute schedule during the daytime - next best thing to "turn up and go". It looks like they might be trying to run it with 4 buses which probably doesn't give it enough recovery time as a 60 minute round trip looks tight - so I guess there is a reliability issue. At any decent frequency a round trip time of say 65 minutes doesn't work too well. So what are they doing? The new timetable from December is irregular, sort of 15-15-15-20 making four buses in 65 minutes, fitting with the round trip time. But not quite, there are more 20 minute gaps and it becomes less regular still in the mid afternoon - although peak hours stay at generally 12 minutes. How to drive passengers away!

The 579 use to be every ten minutes for a short time before it went to every 12 and now every 15.
I think that First Halifax should bin the 579 and instead beef up the 560 to run every 15 minutes with one an hour to Rishworth and Commons, one an hour to Sowerby Bridge and two an hour to Sowerby. The one an hour to Sowerby Bridge would turn back at Tower Hill via Tuel Lane Top, Tower Hill then Wharf Street. It'd make it more simpler as its one 'corridor' with a single number.

I don't think it'll be long until we see the 588 (operated by First West Yorkshire but wholly in Greater Manchester) and the suviving part of the 589 merged together to create a new route.

noddingdonkey · 24 Nov 2019

I did get a response to a previous complaint about the lack of common sense in timetabling the 185 to the effect that Oldham depot don't bother to tell Huddersfield about changes to the 184 so they can't react to keep a balanced timetable.

Andyh82 · 24 Nov 2019

NorthernSpirit said:
The 579 use to be every ten minutes for a short time before it went to every 12 and now every 15.

Of course when it was every 10 mins, TJ Walsh used to run a frequent service along the same route as well. Since they pulled off that route, First have gradually cut it back.

Whisky Papa · 24 Nov 2019

RELL6L said:
These West Yorkshire cuts are shocking and present First in a really poor light. Every 10 minutes is "turn up and go", anything less isn't and will drive people not to bother if they have a choice.

I don't know all the routes but the 590/592 from Halifax to Todmorden is a good example. A decent 10 minute service worked well, I've been on it a couple of times and it was busy. Then it was reduced to every 12 minutes - but nothing stays at that frequency for long - surprise surprise now every 15 minutes. On the Burnley leg (589/592) the cut from every 30 minutes to hourly is a shame but perhaps the rail service has made a difference here, especially as you can go through from Rochdale to Burnley by train now. Turning half the service at Portsmouth won't work at all - if you run one out from Todmorden to Portsmouth 30 minutes after the Burnley one then they will come back together. or vice versa. Not that First are averse to doing this..... Or perhaps they need to resources to compete needlessly in Rochdale.

I'm slightly puzzled by your logic on the 589 timings as Todmrden to Burnley is essentially a 90 minute round trip, while to Portsmouth 30 minutes. If it continued to Portsmouth at the current xx40, it would arrive and depart back at xx55 which is a reasonable split with the 592 coming through from Burnley at xx20. When I started driving on these routes, there was an evening and Sunday 589 operating between Portsmouth and Walsden every hour which worked perfectly well with 590/2 buses running through to Rochdale or Burnley. However, I admit I had forgotten what the turning arrangements at Portsmouth would need to be now, I must check with one of the drivers to see what they do these days.

As for the competing rail service, it perhaps has its merits from Rochdale or Littleborough, but from Todmorden the issue of being dumped at Burnley Manchester Road rather than anywhere useful in Burnley town centre starts becoming an issue. Also the Cheap Day Return from Todmorden is £7.70, considerably more than than the bus, and of course a high proportion would be ENCTS users paying nothing on the bus but potentially full fare on the train. Finally, we still have considerable issues with service reliability, dealt with at length on other threads.

Deerfold · 24 Nov 2019

NorthernSpirit said:
I think that First Halifax should bin the 579 and instead beef up the 560 to run every 15 minutes with one an hour to Rishworth and Commons, one an hour to Sowerby Bridge and two an hour to Sowerby. The one an hour to Sowerby Bridge would turn back at Tower Hill via Tuel Lane Top, Tower Hill then Wharf Street. It'd make it more simpler as its one 'corridor' with a single number.

I'm really not sure how many passengers will see 3 different route variations under one number as simpler. The 579 number has the benefit of having been the same for the longest time (although it used to extend beyond Sowerby). The 579 is often still busy enough that halving the frequency again would cause overcrowding. Over the last 15 years it's gone from 13 bph between Halifax and Sowerby to 5. Reducing that still further to 3 seems a shame.
You'd also have to decide whether you're removing the service from Pye Nest or Rochdale Road or alternating routes, making it less simple.

First used to run the 579 every 10 minutes down Pye Nest with all the other services to Sowerby Bridge operating every 10 minutes down Rochdale Road providing a 5 minute service between them (there was the 528, 560, 562, 564/6, 577, 578 - in addition to these 6bph, the 574 also went down Rochdale Road until Park Road and then up Tuel Lane instead of serving central Sowerby Bridge, the 550 went along Park Road and then terminated at the bottom of Station Road having taken a different route between Halifax and King Cross).

RELL6L · 25 Nov 2019

Fair point on the timings with a turn at Portsmouth. On the current timetable the 589 arrives at Portsmouth at xx.55. With a minimum 5 minute turnround it would leave at xx.00 against the 592 which comes through at xx.15. But then it would arrive at Todmorden at xx.15 and the 589 needs to leave for Rochdale at xx.10, so you could not do it like this with one less vehicle. With the new timetable the 592 gets much more stand time in Burnley (19 minutes against 10 now) so it could work better. With the new timetable if the 589 arriving at Todmorden at xx.35 carried on at xx.36 - a perfect half hour with the 592 leaving at xx.06 - it would arrive at Portsmouth at xx.51. It could then leave at xx.55 which works well with the 592 coming through at xx.20. The 589 would then arrive at Todmorden at xx.10 and it needs to carry on straight away to Rochdale as that is when the 589 must leave. But then with only 10 minutes turnround or pause time in each round trip of 2 hours this just might be too tight to work reliably. The proposed 589 timetable is wasteful though, two buses running for only 40 minutes in each hour. Surely in the peaks it could run on to Portsmouth at least? Or use it to improve resilience and interwork with the 588 at the Rochdale end? Or if my suggestion is too tight could it run a shorter distance up the valley rather than to Portsmouth - if there is somewhere else to turn round. Presumably a bean counter in Aberdeen has instructed one bus be cut and that's it!

TheGrandWazoo · 25 Nov 2019

RELL6L said:
Presumably a bean counter in Aberdeen has instructed one bus be cut and that's it!

Doubt it's Aberdeen these days...thought most of UK Bus was now through Bristol.

Don't know the detail (or truth of it) but certainly looks like a headlong sprint to get the margins up at UK Bus ready for a divestment. That aided by a slimming of the fleet so that new vehicle investment and capital can be reduced. New vehicles for 2019/20 seen quoted at 235 (or 4% of the fleet size) and FWY seemed to have missed out most of the cuts until now.

Volvodart · 25 Nov 2019

The number of new buses for First Bus for this financial year are skewed by Glasgow getting their 75 in the last financial year so the green incentive bus fuel rebate would not be halved.

Robertj21a · 25 Nov 2019

I guess that FWY has been spared many cuts in recent times because it was still the most profitable part of First Bus UK. Places like FSY, Potteries etc have had to have sharp cuts in order to survive.
If cuts are now being implemented it sounds like sensible house keeping to retain FWY profitability, and make it (and/or the group) more attractive to potential buyers.

TheGrandWazoo · 25 Nov 2019

Volvodart said:
The number of new buses for First Bus for this financial year are skewed by Glasgow getting their 75 in the last financial year so the green incentive bus fuel rebate would not be halved.

Fair point that I'd forgotten but even then, 310 isn't even 5.5%. Granted, they may have factored in that they'll get some stuff back from Rotala at Bolton but even so, it does point to fleet replacement being partially enabled by fleet reduction. Whether it's a product of prudent cuts allowing a lower number of new vehicles to be ordered, or a lack of capital meaning that fleet reduction is the consequence, dunno!

Andyh82 · 25 Nov 2019

RELL6L said:
Or use it to improve resilience and interwork with the 588 at the Rochdale end? Or if my suggestion is too tight could it run a shorter distance up the valley rather than to Portsmouth - if there is somewhere else to turn round. Presumably a bean counter in Aberdeen has instructed one bus be cut and that's it!

The 589/590 already interwork with the 588 at Rochdale

Robertj21a said:
I guess that FWY has been spared many cuts in recent times because it was still the most profitable part of First Bus UK. Places like FSY, Potteries etc have had to have sharp cuts in order to survive.

There have been many cuts at First WY, maybe not as drastic as there is a substantial network but over the last few years we’ve seen many

High profile services dropped down from every 10 to every 12 off peak
Low profile services dropped from every 30 mins to hourly
School gaps created to reduce overall PVR allowing school buses to do normal service as well

This sort of thing has effected all areas, even in Leeds and even to the high profile interurban services

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