Slapdash...Cobble together...Can someone give us a TOC with a bit of credibility please.
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Northern - is the bad PR unfair?
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Slapdash...Cobble together...Can someone give us a TOC with a bit of credibility please.
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Bantamzen
Established Member
Any ideas on a company with the resources, and will to take it on? Answers on a postcard to DfT....
Read through these forums and you'll find deep criticism of all the TOCs, possibly unsurprising as most TOCs, and indeed buses are run / owned by a handful of companies. And there is good reason why there is such a monopoly on the rails:
(Revenue + Subsidies) - (Investment + Running Costs + Returns to DfT) = Small Margins.
You see the problem isn't just with the companies, they don't deliberately run a bad service, despite what some here believe. The franchise system is creating a perfect storm in which operators are finding it increasingly difficult to balance bids that will be successful against making profits on relatively short time frames, and making profits is what private companies do or they fail. It will only get worse unless a government commits to a different model in which they contract out services, but control revenue. So if you are hoping for a dream private company to ride in and make things amazing, forget it, at least under this system.
As long as you levy the same criticism against Serco-Abellio era Northern because they worked the same way in this regard...
Indeed. And of course it's broken (like much of Britain-education, health, housing etc.). And I personally would go for full nationalisation end of story as a complete no-brainer.
But if that is not going to happen we need to look at examples today that might point us in the right direction for getting out of this abyss.
My personal view is that Merseyrail IS a credible TOC. If you share my view (and I know some people on the forum seem to have rather petty grudges against them) then compare and contrast them, in terms of how the relationship with the TOC and the other stakeholders has been constructed, with the likes of Northern to consider what the fundamental changes to the franchising system need to be.
oscarthecat92
Member
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- 14 Aug 2016
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Tonight was a farce of Northern's own making. 1718 Leeds to Skipton was dispatched by platform staff, guard closed doors and the train sat for around 5 minutes before it was realised that there was no driver on the train. The doors were re-opened and the guard advised that control have assured a driver was on the way but couldn't give an ETA. Eventually at 1735 the train was cancelled, where a mass race over the bridge to the crush loaded 1741 ensued - which then ended up leaving 6 minutes late due to waiting for a signal.
Clearly a case of very poor organisation at control and misleading communication to the staff on the ground.
northernchris
Established Member
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- 24 Jul 2011
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There's certainly a trend of certain services being prone to late running or cancellation with no sign of improvement. It appears as though Northern and Network Rail are very disjointed at the moment with neither seeming to want to get a grip on performance
thejuggler
Member
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- 8 Jan 2016
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They don't help themselves.
16.15 Bradford to York cancelled due to a signal/points problem at Mytholmroyd.
On station announcement there are NO services due between Bradford Interchange and Leeds and no info on when the next service will be.
Passengers advised to go Forster Square or catch a bus.
I check on line and the 16.32 service to Leeds is on the way, just leaving Halifax.
16.15 Bradford to York cancelled due to a signal/points problem at Mytholmroyd.
On station announcement there are NO services due between Bradford Interchange and Leeds and no info on when the next service will be.
Passengers advised to go Forster Square or catch a bus.
I check on line and the 16.32 service to Leeds is on the way, just leaving Halifax.
thejuggler
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- 1,186
No better today. Complete mess on Calder Valley line again.
A friend was waiting at Steeton and the service failed to stop, it then stopped and reversed to the station. Looks like 2S09 which lost 11 minutes?
I'll be amazed if a significant decision over their future isn't taken soon.
A friend was waiting at Steeton and the service failed to stop, it then stopped and reversed to the station. Looks like 2S09 which lost 11 minutes?
I'll be amazed if a significant decision over their future isn't taken soon.
trainophile
Established Member
Northern's unreliability (among other things) has just cost me an extra £65. I was booked from Southport to Glasgow on Sunday 15th December, having returned from Maryport on Saturday 15th. However what with the Sunday cancellations and the ongoing TPE problems I have changed my plans, involving an overnight stay in Penrith and fresh tickets for the Saturday and Sunday. It really isn't good enough that every journey turns into a lottery 
.
However as that weekend is the first one for the new West Coast franchise operator I am not exactly filled with confidence for that working out either!
.However as that weekend is the first one for the new West Coast franchise operator I am not exactly filled with confidence for that working out either!
Howardh
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Well they got me to Blackpool today on timeish in a brand new clapped out old electric where the bodywork was rusting, the heater half working, bog without paper and no wifi. Inside looks so run-down, but at least the guard was cheery! Makes you long for a pacer!
NoMorePacers
Established Member
I think that staff on the Northern network are friendly and helpful in my experience. There are a couple of exceptions however.
Contracted security staff at Manchester Victoria gateline - not great.
The goon squad at Manchester Piccadilly - no.
Blackpool North - just no.
Contracted security staff at Manchester Victoria gateline - not great.
The goon squad at Manchester Piccadilly - no.
Blackpool North - just no.
ohgoditsjames
Member
Whilst I frequently bemoan Northern ordering new 2 car trains I absolutely cannot criticise the drivers, guards and other operational staff. Most of them are nice and friendly enough and all of them are clearly working their arses off. Especially appreciate the ones that show their enthusiasm and love for what they do.
Sure you get the odd mardy guard or ticket warden but let’s be honest it’s hardly surprising considering the pressure they must be under.
It doesn’t get said enough so thought I’d use this post as a way of saying thank you to everyone that works for Northern (or in the industry in general). All members of the rail industry deserve credit, especially the frontline staff (and support team) who bare the brunt of irate customers.
So thank you to everyone giving their best, having patience for/putting up with us passengers and continuing to show professionalism!
Sure you get the odd mardy guard or ticket warden but let’s be honest it’s hardly surprising considering the pressure they must be under.
It doesn’t get said enough so thought I’d use this post as a way of saying thank you to everyone that works for Northern (or in the industry in general). All members of the rail industry deserve credit, especially the frontline staff (and support team) who bare the brunt of irate customers.
So thank you to everyone giving their best, having patience for/putting up with us passengers and continuing to show professionalism!
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They don’t help themselves with some of their attempts at social media! (Not the blame of the actual social media team either I suspect)
An advertisement for their refurbished trains is fine...but I would love to know which genius decided to add the first sentence ‘No need for delay’!
An advertisement for their refurbished trains is fine...but I would love to know which genius decided to add the first sentence ‘No need for delay’!
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Thomas6187
Member
If you mean the 13/14 "goon squad", they are employed by Network Rail
Howardh
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How much do they pay the horses to pull them?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Fundamentally the issue there is that minimum wage contract security guards should only be used for precisely that - security. That is, guarding stuff (like a factory at night, or inside a railway station closed for the evening, or whatever) where anyone who shows up is in the wrong for even being there, and so customer service manner is of no relevance. Or possibly as a team who, given the BTP's limited resources, could be called in at the behest of a member of railway staff because it has been decided that they are to leave the premises, where again manner is of little relevance.
They should not, in any setting, be doing customer service roles or making decisions, because that is not their skillset. I include in that the "shouters" on P13/14, a few of which seem to look and have the demeanour like they've come straight from the collection of "spiceheads" over at Piccadilly Gardens (though to be fair, some of them are quite personable).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Employed or contracted?
ASharpe
Member
Is it better for Northern to set a timetable that meets the Franchise commitments or to set a timetable that won't result in delays?
I keep thinking of th 0746 from Shipley, It might just have achievable dwell times if it wasn't during the morning peak. But for it to run to time it needs to be ready on time at Skipton and then then the driver must have to thrash it.
I keep thinking of th 0746 from Shipley, It might just have achievable dwell times if it wasn't during the morning peak. But for it to run to time it needs to be ready on time at Skipton and then then the driver must have to thrash it.
Philip
On Moderation
The directing team on platforms 13 and 14 should be firm and even ruthless if need be, in order to keep a reasonable level of control, order and safety in the challenging situation.
And this is how you treat paying customers? Remind me not to go to your restaurant.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But should be always polite and well presented and speak proper English. This is, I find, a noticeable difference between contract security staff in the UK Vs other countries where the latter are much better. The demeanour of a bin man isn't right.
The bad eggs are far from it. They shout and below (including rather stupidly on occasion at guards attempting to dispatch their trains) indiscriminately, they wear vests that make them an attractive source of information that they have no training to provide and when told to wind it in the response is less than dignified.
They're a cheap and nasty solution that doesn't work to an overblown problem.
I agree 100%. They often can't tell traincrew apart from Bert & Ada. And where is the equivalent of this ridiculous setup at Oxford Rd where things get equally as bad?
jamesst
Member
Sadly it's a feature of this country to always go for the cheapest option
I once had one, kindly enough, help an old lady put her bag on the train. He then walked down the platform to where he thought her seat was to start pounding his fist on the window and pointing up in the air that the occupants should jump up and move immediately (she was in a queue about 20 long in the aisle). I told him to chill out, stop banging on the window and I'd make sure she was OK and he muttered a profanity to himself and started walking around in circles shaking his head.
Absolutely totally unsuited to customer facing duties in what can be a fast paced and tricky environment.
Philip
On Moderation
In this case they are rail passengers and the assistants are more or less crowd controllers; if people ignore instructions and signs as often happens in this situation (ie. standing in front of the line, crowding the doors making it difficult for people to get off, not moving down the train etc), then the assistants are right to start shouting and taking a firm grip of the situation. There is no comparison with a restaurant.
A proportion of the problems with overcrowded trains and platforms are caused by ignorant passengers.
Except they don't do anything of the sort to manage boarding, which would actually be of some use. All they do is bark at people to stay behind the red line when there isn't a train there with it's doors open.
So tell me which of these fundamentals do you disagree with?
a-The railway industry exists solely to serve its customers.
b-Without customers there is no railway.
c-For these reasons ultimately everything that the railway industry does should be focused on meeting the needs of the customers.
d-The railway industry is not doing customers a favour by transporting them.
e-Indeed, those who work in the railway industry should be grateful to their customers, for without them they would not be within the railway industry.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Such as Northern itself, I suppose.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, they are not. No official in any context should ever shout at a customer or passenger unless what they are doing is immediately endangering their safety or that of someone else (note: standing over the red line is not doing that - over the yellow line may be, but shouting would only be necessary if they were about to be belted by a train - if they're not, "excuse me, can you move back please" with a bit of ushering using well-considered body position and body language is the correct way). It is simply unacceptable.
The entirety of the problems with Platforms 13/14 are down to the inability of the railway to plan a realistic timetable and run trains of a proper length (or of the Government to fund the construction of 15/16 to allow that timetable to be viable). Nobody else is to blame. Go look at St Pancras for how this kind of crowded environment should be managed, and notice that there are no shouters whatsoever because the trains are long enough and they are designed for easy and quick circulation.
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