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Collision and derailment at Neville Hill Depot (13/11/2019)

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hwl

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Neville Hill to Midland Road depot, good road access, or even back to Doncaster depot over night, may still take a few nights and stops in loops to get it there, but again Doncaster Iep depot has good road access.
Not sure there is enough spare space at Midland Road to deal with the unit without affecting FL significantly.
Doncaster is easily do-able overnight on skates
Skates: given 800 axle loads; 25mph on plain line and 3mph over low (<= 30mph) speed s&c.
 
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class 9

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Not sure there is enough spare space at Midland Road to deal with the unit without affecting FL significantly.
Doncaster is easily do-able overnight on skates
Skates: given 800 axle loads; 25mph on plain line and 3mph over low (<= 30mph) speed s&c.
Loading stuff from rail to truck has been done a few times at Midland Road, I’ve a photo from a few years back of an HST there.
 

hwl

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Loading stuff from rail to truck has been done a few times at Midland Road, I’ve a photo from a few years back of an HST there.
But loading a complete 800 there would take quite a bit of time compare to a single HST power car and block access to most line while doing it.
The main transportation issue appears to be damage to wheel (flanges?) during derailment in which case Doncaster on skate in the first instance make sense, the wheelsets can then be changed or turned there to enable easier onward transportation if it needs to go back to Merchant Park.
Hitachi will want a good look to see how the damage compared to the that modelled.
 

Murph

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I'm slightly late to the discussion, but have some numbers which might help those saying the damage looks severe for a low speed crash. 400t moving at 15mph has approximately 9 megajoules of kinetic energy. That's equivalent to 9 sticks of Nobel Dynamite or 2.15kg of TNT. Obviously I'm just using rough numbers to approximate an upper bound for it, and the physics are more complex than a solid mass hitting an immovable object, it's just to give a comparison of energy.
 

class 9

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But loading a complete 800 there would take quite a bit of time compare to a single HST power car and block access to most line while doing it.
The main transportation issue appears to be damage to wheel (flanges?) during derailment in which case Doncaster on skate in the first instance make sense, the wheelsets can then be changed or turned there to enable easier onward transportation if it needs to go back to Merchant Park.
Hitachi will want a good look to see how the damage compared to the that modelled.
It could be done quite easily if doing the whole 9 car, it would be put on number 2 road(the long siding between the shed & the stored 70s) then individually shunted over to 5 or 6 road 1 vehicle at a time, this is where the low Loders are lined up to the rails.
Yes it would be a time consuming process, but Mid Rd isn't as busy with locos going on & off shed since the demise of coal traffic.
 
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800001

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Why can't they just move it to Doncaster anyway as I thought that that was a maintenance depot?

Obviously it needs more than a bit of tape to fix it, but surely it would easier

Maintenence depot, it won't have the capacity to do what is required to return this to service.
 

class 9

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Maintenence depot, it won't have the capacity to do what is required to return this to service.
You could say the same about Merchant Park, it's just an assembly plant, it won't have any experience in dealing with collision repairs.
 

syorksdeano

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Maintenence depot, it won't have the capacity to do what is required to return this to service.
But when they made their big announcement about Doncaster, one of the items mentioned was that alongside maintenance it was equipped to undertake major overhauls including replacement of major components.
 

hwl

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But when they made their big announcement about Doncaster, one of the items mentioned was that alongside maintenance it was equipped to undertake major overhauls including replacement of major components.
...which may not include bent body work.
 

notverydeep

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The RAIB have indicated this will get a full investigation report (as opposed to a Safety Digest).

Specifically, echoing many of the posts here they are looking particularly at the crashworthiness of the 800:
Our investigation will identify the sequence of events which led to the accident and the factors that contributed to its consequences. It will consider:

  • the actions, training and competence of the staff involved
  • the design and validation of the class 800 train, including the ergonomics of its cab, its crashworthiness performance and its resistance to derailment in collision scenarios
  • any underlying factors

Here is a link: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/train-collision-at-neville-hill
 
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Swimbar

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syorksdeano

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I'm confused by this bit

the design and validation of the class 800 train, including the ergonomics of its cab, its crashworthiness performance and its resistance to derailment in collision scenarios

Surely this would have been done at the design stage, and before a decision was made to allow them to run?
 

hwl

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So we now know that the HST was not stationary.
The impact speed is even lower that most of us thought - not surprised there is a full investigation
Both trains within speed limit...
As with most RAIB reports there will be a lot of separate factors stacking up.
 

hwl

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I'm confused by this bit

the design and validation of the class 800 train, including the ergonomics of its cab, its crashworthiness performance and its resistance to derailment in collision scenarios

Surely this would have been done at the design stage, and before a decision was made to allow them to run?
Whether the criteria for assessment were adequate, in the light of new experience.
 

185

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.....why aren't the front of trains made out of aluminium?

I'm guessing, judging by the pictures, it's cheaper to make them out of cheese.

Seriously though, I do often wonder about some of the newest trains crumple zones - they are supposed to absorb a high speed impact.
 

hwl

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You could use the new Lancia but anyways, why aren't the front of trains made out of aluminium?
The fibreglass is far cheaper for a cosmetic item and shatters rather than deforms so in minor bumps less underlying damage.
 

hwl

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I'm guessing, judging by the pictures, it's cheaper to make them out of cheese.

Seriously though, I do often wonder about some of the newest trains crumple zones - they are supposed to absorb a high speed impact.
The crumple structure isn't even visible in the pictures - the coupling took the load after the fibreglass was "removed".

The coupling still looks pretty intact after finding something solid on the HST
 

cactustwirly

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Yes it's just a cosmetic item, but

You can see from the pictures that there's a metal (presumably steel) frame underneath the fibreglass, and that is still intact, that's probably the bit of the front that absorbs the impact.
The fibreglass is cosmetic and can easily be replaced.
Btw, before these trains were signed off by the ORR, they would have had to go through thorough safety tests that are obviously more stringent than what the HSTs had to go through.
 

swt_passenger

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The crumple structure isn't even visible in the pictures - the coupling took the load after the fibreglass was "removed".
I think a lot of people still just aren’t “getting” this point. The fibreglass shroud being completely sacrificial has been explained quite a few times.
 

LOL The Irony

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You can see from the pictures that there's a metal (presumably steel) frame underneath the fibreglass, and that is still intact, that's probably the bit of the front that absorbs the impact.
The fibreglass is cosmetic and can easily be replaced.
Btw, before these trains were signed off by the ORR, they would have had to go through thorough safety tests that are obviously more stringent than what the HSTs had to go through.
I think a lot of people still just aren’t “getting” this point. The fibreglass shroud being completely sacrificial has been explained quite a few times.
Fair enough. I guess we're too used to cars having the bodywork as part of the crash structure.
 

hwl

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I think a lot of people still just aren’t “getting” this point. The fibreglass shroud being completely sacrificial has been explained quite a few times.
In terms of looking cosmetically bad this is probably the worst combination in the UK as the HST doesn't have a coupling hidden under the fibreglass hence the total distance the fibreglass has to be crushed before there is solid contact on both is quite large.
 

EE Andy b1

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I think i would be more concerned about the Hitachi derailing at a low impact speed of 9 mph rather than the damage at the front end. Imagine if this was at a higher speed derailing into the path of a train coming from the opposite direction at speed.
 
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